**Help Wanted**

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

No, not farm help. Here me out before you go. Since I am a licensed WV game bird farm, the State of West Virginia told me that, any and all Wild game birds that I am hatching, in my case pheasants, must have 20 sqft. once they are born.

This means, from the incubator to the hatcher for the remaining time. I told them they have to remain in the hatcher in a controlled environment for 12-24 hours or until dry, before moving to the brooder. They said if I didn’t move them, I was in violation of the law.

So I said, you are telling me that if I hatch out 300 pheasant chicks I need 6000 sqft for these, less then 2-hour-old chicks? I was told that’s the law.

So I need hard paper evidence to present to the DNR, on the issues related to hatchery dry time requirements and hatchery square footage dry time requirements per bird prior to moving to the brooder, this goes for any wild game bird, and then with this evidence, all they will issue me is a hatcher waiver.

So all you people in WV who are licensed game bird farms that hatch out your own birds be aware of this issue. You know those quail battery brooder by GQF? They are illegal to use unless you have a brooder size waiver.


Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm

[pocketsierra]

Sounds like whoever you are dealing with are complete idiots. Have they quoted the exact statute in WV law? I'll bet someone is misreading it.

Nathan

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

pocketsierra,

Sounds like whoever you are dealing with are complete idiots. Have they quoted the exact statute in WV law? I'll bet someone is misreading it.

Nathan  

No It is one size fits all!



WV Code of Rules (58 CRS 64)

14. Grouse, Pheasants, Quail or Dove

a.   Cage size for one to five birds
1)   100 square foot enclosure with 6’H fence
b.   Cage size for additional bird
1)   Increase enclosure by 20 square feet


This is the State of West Virginia’s one size that fits all need. This includes adult, juveniles, and chicks and just hatched chicks.

So if you want a flight pen size waiver you have to ask for one. If you get the waiver for pen size reduced from 20sqft to 10sqft, per bird, that does not cover your brooder size. So you may get the reduction on your adult birds to 10 sqft but your brooder is still 20sqft per dayold chick, regardless of species listed above.

So I have a waiver for pen size sqft per bird, I also have a waiver for brooder size sqft per bird. Now they want actual hard proof of hatcher sqft size per newborn chick.

I have spoken with GQF manufactures and they ask me if I was kidding. I said I was not. They have no hard written proof of sqft requirement of the amount of hatching birds at any given time. They do state that the chicks should remain in the hatchery or the incubator in a controlled environment at least 24 hours before moving to a brooder.

I also ask the manufactures of GQF where they got their information on the manufacturing, I was told it came from 40+ years experience in the business.

You see there is a catch 22 here in WV. You have to report all births and deaths and transfers within 15 day. So if they know you are hatching out chicks they will bust you on sqft requirements on the hatcher.

There is a paper trail a mile long on raising game birds here in WV.

So if there is anyone out there that has this information please post where I can get it.

Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm

[pocketsierra]

Will papers/studies from Universities on raising game birds help? Some of them will have suggestions for square footage?

This site has a pheasant section:
http://www.ansci.umn.edu/poultry/resources/gamebirds.htm

You may be able to search the internet for similar resources.

This is more of a long term thing, but it may be timely to talk to your state representative about the brain dead regulations in your state.

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

pocketsierra,

 Will papers/studies from Universities on raising game birds help? Some of them will have suggestions for square footage?
 

Yes it will help. I have check quite a few already. Onlyhttp://ndsuext.nodak.edu/extpubs/alt-ag/pheasan.htm had information regarding hatchery dry time, but nothing on sqft requirements regarding per chick at birth.

 This is more of a long term thing, but it may be timely to talk to your state representative about the brain dead regulations in your state.  

Its hard to get any thing change in the DNR codes when you don't have any qualified wildlife biologist working for the state on these such issues.

The states biologist are all deer, turkey, bear programed, and then you have the fish biologist whos main concern are the states fish and fish hatcheries.

[stewaw]

Sounds like time to pen a letter to the Director of the WV wildlife asking for his/her review with a copy sent to your State legislators (Senators and Congresssmen) listing your;
1. Experience in the business
2. Concern with the new law (I presume this is a new law?) If not, and simply a new interpretation of an existing law then I would be suprised if you don't get a quick retraction/reinterpretation.
3. Biology- Galliformes with rare exception, are hatched/raised as flocks in close proximity so the chicks can share warmth and learn from each other. This law is requireing you to violate your principles of "natural management"......This will catch their eyes as it is obviously some type of bunny hugger intent to avoid crowding those "poor birds".

Please give me a little more information on the background of the law- What session of legislature was it passed in or a more complete title/section of the code......I'd love to disect it a little further.


Thanks, Good luck and keep us posted,
David

[magnumhntr]

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/ua300.pdf

http://www.lakecumberlandgamebirds.com/new_page_3.htm

http://www.agr.gov.sk.ca/DOCS/livestock/specialized/pheprod3.asp?firstPick=&secondPick=&pick=&child=1

http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/uplandgame/aviculture_guidelines.htm

that is a good start. If you want more sources, give me a pm ;-)[/url]

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

stewaw,

Please give me a little more information on the background of the law- What session of legislature was it passed in or a more complete title/section of the code......I'd love to disect it a little further.
 

Here are two links to Title 58
http:// http://www.wvsos.com/csr/verify.asp?TitleSeries=58-64

http:// http://www.wvsos.com/csrdocs/worddocs/58-64.doc

Page 24 is where they list the cage size. You will also note that there is no mention of waivers being granted.


Here is the link to the code §20-2-47

http:// http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/wvacode_VOpenFile.cfm?serverFilePath=%5C%5Cwwwnas%5CInetpub%5Cwwwroot%5CWVCODE%5C20%5CWVC%2020%20%20%2D%20%202%20%20%2D%20%2047%20%20%2Ehtm


magnumhntr,

I check out all the links you have listed. None list dry time or sqft for new born chicks.

I spoke with Lake Cumberland Game Birds yesterday. I can't post what he said about the WVDNR.


Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm

[magnumhntr]

You might try contacting MSU = http://msucares.com/, as they seen to be the authority on poultry, and might be able to help you out.

[pocketsierra]

From what I read, this should apply to PERMANENT CAGE/PEN/HOUSING REQUIREMENTS, and only if they are kept mroe than 30 days at the same location. The incubator is not a permanent location and perhaps you can change them from a brooder to a growout pen within 30 days.    

However, that assumes they are being reasonable, which doesn't seem like the case. It doesn't sound like they will change their mind if you simply show them the title of the regulation they are quoting at you.  

This is what I read:

"When wildlife is kept for more than thirty (30) consecutive days at the same location, such wildlife shall be placed in enclosures meeting, at a minimum, the requirements below:"

14.   Grouse, Pheasants, Quail or Doves

a.   Cage size for one to five birds

1)   100 square foot enclosure with 6'H fence

b.   Cage size for each additional bird

1)   Increase enclosure area by 20 square feet

c.   Accessories

1)   Dusting area

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

magnumhntr,

I just sent of an email. Thanks!

pocketsierra,

That is the way I read it.

The incubator or hatchery is not a permanent location and neither is a brooder.

They busted my chops last year on my brooder square footage. They told me I had to have 20 square foot per chick. I had 259 chicks in there. My brooder size is: 6'widex32'longx7'high that is 192 square foot. I had 6 heat lamps located in there and I had all this space left over.

I requested a brooder waiver size and got it down to 2chicks per sqft. All I had to do was show some documentation. Now they are playing games again.


Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm

[Jerry]

In my LIMITED experience, it seems like the little devils all get in a pile anyway, regardless of available space.

Jerry

[quailacres]

Letting your state representative and senator know about these outrageous regulations is important. You should write them a letter asking them to contact the state fish & game department (or whatever they are called in your state) on your behalf. Find others in your area to do the same thing. Representatives are usually eager to help out as they want your vote and that of anybody who is associated with you. In my opinion, your state game department is ill informed, out of touch, probably indifferent about what is best for the resource, and may only make changes if pressured to do so by the legislators who provide their funding! My feeling is that everyone on this message board should write to them on your behalf. How do you feel about that?

[magnumhntr]

Here in Michigan, our regulations on square footage don't go into affect until the birds are 14 wks old. Don't know if it'd help, but showing the people at your DNR how a different state runs thier program might get them to see that a one size fits all program isn't always the most efficient. If you want a name and number for the Gamebird Specialist here in michigan, give me a PM. Like I said, don't know if it's help, but offering up any assistenace I can :-)

[penny's dad]

WE DON'T USE THAT MUCH SPACE FOR CATTLE IN FEEDLOTS!..P.D.