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Author Topic: Is this normal  (Read 6916 times)
murphys42002
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« on: August 19, 2007, 11:45:17 AM »

Ok, I have a 6mo old gsp and she is warning me we are coming up to birds. When she starts to smell the birds she will start to creep a lil and wait for me to catch up.Then when I get there she'll go again and find the birds.

Murf
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wildergamebirds
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2007, 02:19:08 PM »

No, she's abnormal, get rid of her!  I'LL DO YOU A FAVOR, AND TAKE HER OFF YOUR HANDS.  Heck, I'm feeling generous, I'll even come pick her up.

  I've never seen a dog do as you describe, so I guess it's not "normal", but sure could be useful, especially on Pheasant, or other birds that tend to run, or flush when pressured. 

  In some field trial venues, she would be penalized, but they don't have much similarity to bird hunting, anyway.

  The best part of this is, she is hunting for you, not herself.  That is pretty "abnormal" that young.  Some guys work on that a dogs whole life.  I bet you have spent a lot of time close to her, did you raise her mostly in the house?

  I wouldn't change a thing, until you have a problem.  It seems you have several choices with her training.  It probably would be pretty easy to train her to stop in a dead point at first scent, if she is smelling body scent when she acts that way.  She may be reacting to ground scent, you didn't say how far she was from the birds.  Does she point, and hold when you do catch up?

  I've had Brittanys that would slow some, and signal with a tail shake that rivals a Rattler's when they got on hot ground scent.  But what you describe sounds unusual.  She probably won't over run many birds, either.

  I started by kidding you about getting rid of her, but if something about her range, or style doesn't please you, or if she develops bad habits, and you decide to sell her, let me know.

Jack
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Pheasant Hollow Farm
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2007, 02:58:28 PM »

I have two GSP that do the same thing. These dogs are self taught, never had any of my dogs trained.

Steve
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Specializing in Manchurian Ring-necked Pheasants and Melanistic Mutant Pheasants for release, propagation and the hunting community. Licensed by the State of WV. DNR# D6-42-23-GF1
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2007, 03:00:28 PM »

They also do the same thing on rabbits and hold them there on point.

Steve
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schultz
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 07:28:55 PM »

Ok, I have a 6mo old gsp and she is warning me we are coming up to birds. When she starts to smell the birds she will start to creep a lil and wait for me to catch up.Then when I get there she'll go again and find the birds.

Murf
It's called "bumping"  If your dog bumps a bird, do not reward the dog by shooting the bird.
You want that pup to learn to be steady on point. I would work with this dog on a short check cord and if the pup creeps grab the check cord and whoa your dog. Reinforce the whoa.
Also, do you have access to a remote bird launcher?
If so get yourself some barn pidgeons to load in the launcher. If your pup starts creeping, release the bird and most importantly, do not shoot the bird.
The pup will learn that if it creeps on the bird, it is not going to have the reward of the bird.
Have you done any yard work with your pup, along with reinforcement of whoa training or are you relying on the pup to be self taught.
There is a lot to be said for natural ability with a dog but some of the natural ability needs to be reinforced and "controlled"
Do you have a local NAVHDA chapter close by?
Alot of valuable information available from chapter members.
Check out the link that I have provided, and you should be able to find a local chapter.
http://www.navhda.org/
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sugar run gamebirds
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2007, 08:13:17 PM »

we train and breed gsp's.we run akc trials and hunt tests and navhda na and utilities.what you are explaining is your dog taking her job to serious.let her have fun and chase the birds.she is still a pup let her be a pup.the best gun dogs are those who have fun doing what they are bred to do.the whoa,steadiness,honoring will come when your dog is more mature to understand.just let her have fun and when she is ready then you can teach her.when she looks back at you and starts creeping tell her to find the bird.encourage her to keep going if she bumps the bird oh well she is a pup.let her chase it.then when she is older work whoa with a check cord work her up on a bird and whoa her moving closer and closer to het as she gets closer to the bird.when you go to a na test in navhda they like to see the pup chase the bird after the flush.make things fun for your pup and she will suprise you later.

 Lenny
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be careful what you say about a mans wife and kids but be DAMN careful what you say about his bird dogs......
murphys42002
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2007, 10:55:40 PM »

NO JACK YOU CAN'T HAVE HER!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:I HAD TO STEAL HER FROM MY WIFE!!!And yes she is a full time buddy.She is an inside dog that no one is aloud to yell at,yard work every 2nd or 3rd day and plenty of puppy time on the ranch.I'm not pushing to pup at all.As far as woah goes she can be at a good trot 30 yrds away and when I say woah she will stop with a few steps and she won't move untill i touch her head.The same go with sit, heel,stay.Now If she is close she will woah immediatley.

The creeping I'm talking about is like 3 step with the tail straight up and then she stops, looks back as if to say hurry up. When I get close she will go point the birds.Thats upwind, if she catches a bird crosswind she points it immediatley.When she does get on point I can woah her and she will let me flush and shoot.Like I said she will hold a command untill she gets touched on the head.I do shoot when she lets me flush.

I bought a bird launcher but not a remote launcher because I thought the whole point was to get the lil girl to point them and I am supposed to flush and shoot.HMMMM I hope I'm not messing her up.As far as killing birds well I haven't killed a one for her yet. I only have about 60 quail left out of 110. LOL I had 40 jump ship and head over to the neibors lake.  But I am getting 200 more in mid September (the guy's last hatch of the year)so when I get those in I am going to start teaching her to fetch and shoot this batch so I don't have a bunch of fighting birds in the J houses.

I also just got in a GSP club that has a fully stocked 196 acre lease with Quail and Pigeons.they sound very eager to help so I figure this is my best bet to get some help from trainers.(FREE HELP)LOL

Thanks far everyones input.
Murf

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AA Plantation
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 11:42:37 AM »

we train and breed gsp's.we run akc trials and hunt tests and navhda na and utilities.what you are explaining is your dog taking her job to serious.let her have fun and chase the birds.she is still a pup let her be a pup.the best gun dogs are those who have fun doing what they are bred to do.the whoa,steadiness,honoring will come when your dog is more mature to understand.just let her have fun and when she is ready then you can teach her.when she looks back at you and starts creeping tell her to find the bird.encourage her to keep going if she bumps the bird oh well she is a pup.let her chase it.then when she is older work whoa with a check cord work her up on a bird and whoa her moving closer and closer to het as she gets closer to the bird.when you go to a na test in navhda they like to see the pup chase the bird after the flush.make things fun for your pup and she will suprise you later.

 Lenny
Sugar Run Gamebirds
Could not agree more. Bird Drive and learning to hunt should always be first.
Learning the yard-work and then being able to apply that in the field comes afterwards.
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SportDog
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 06:53:00 PM »

That is excellent.  Heres the thing about creeping.  A dog in the wild has to learn to catch its prey so that he can eat.  They learn very quickly that dashing in the the prey is not the most effective way and eventually will begin to creep on that prey so they can eat.  And actually a dogs "creep" is his point.  You just have to teach him to stop rather than continue. 

Good luck you seem to have a fine bird dog on your hands.
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wildergamebirds
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 03:42:10 AM »

I think some of you are reading something extra into his original post.  Or maybe I missed something.  I don't think the dog is bumping birds.  The way I read it, she is slowing to signal that there are birds in the immediate area.  Probably just from ground scent.  Not actually going on point (at this point).  Then when he acknowledges her, and nears the "birdy" area, she does a final locating of the birds, points, and (I assume) holds until he flushes the bird.  This could develop into true creeping/busting if poorly conditioned Quail are used.  I think as long as she gets his attention, he approaches her, she locates and points/holds, and gets the reward of retrieving the dead bird, everything should be fine.
 
 If she is steady to wing, or until the shot, she is less likely to develop problems than a dog that breaks at the flush.

  In most AKC trials, handlers would want her to lock up at first scent.  In my mind, that can make things tougher.  I have a male Brittany that does that, especially on Prairie Chickens (they give off a lot of scent).  I have had to kick what seemed like a full acre of weeds for a single point.  The same thing can happen with pen raised Quail, that won't fly without a good kick.

  That is a better than crowding birds.  I have given up a few times, though, and had birds flush without warning, as I walked back to release him.  I've managed to hit my share of those, but walking back to the truck to change pants that often is tiring!
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WHITNEYPLU
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 05:32:31 PM »

lmao  now I have a mental image of Jack walking thru the field with his vest packed with shells, a few birds in the back, maybe a candy bar and a few depends for those ocaasional accidents lol. I really want that image out of my head and fast lol. And the dog shaking his head thinking to himself Now how am I suppose to locate the birds with that smell lingering around.
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murphys42002
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 11:17:10 AM »

Update on my pup.She now is just locking up on birds.I took her to some akc hunt tests and she did well. After talking to some of the judges she shouldn't have alot of problems being a M/H.At the field trial I took her to I'm not sure if she runs big enough. I only intered her in the puppy class. She found a bird but the puppy class they don't have to find birds they just want to see them run. I now have a new problem her at home! Pup is now backing cows and deer.LOL Once she finds a bird or two then she will start running and finding birds.She will run good when going other places but here at home its kind of hard to train when she is more interested in the deer and cows!!! My wife and I was talking and I think I'm going to go for a walk first from now on and fire off a couple of shots on the hill. Then hopefully when I take her out she'll forget about the deer and start looking for birds. Yesterday I just gave up after 20 mins of watching her back deer and cows. I put her on a leash and walked her home.I'm not sure what to do about this problem but I'm going to see how the walk by myself first works. this is her backing a deer. LOL
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wildergamebirds
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2008, 11:07:00 AM »

  That's a GSP?  Lot of tail.  Great style, up on her toes nice.  Does she look like that on birds?  She actually looks like a plastic training dummy.  I have a couple of Brittanys that are really intense, but never look that good.

  I was at a shoot to retrieve trial in Oklahoma, and saw a dog back a white water barrel! 

  I've never dealt with this problem, but may have a cure.  It has worked for me when dealing with a distracted dog, or one that acts too wild, and ranges way out, bypassing good cover.  Take the gun firing a little farther.  Carry a live bird into the field, dizzy it, and plant it behind, or away from your dog, in the direction you wanted him to hunt.  The best method is to use another trained dog and assistant (trained assistants are also best).  Lead the second dog down wind from the bird, to establish point.  Have the assistant lift your dog, and turn her so that she can see you, and the other dog (assistant must be able to hold your dog in that spot).  Now, flush and kill the bird, letting the second dog retrieve.  Hunt on in the direction you wanted, assistant should hold your dog for at least a full minute.  If you can hunt away, and over a hill all the better.  You can bet your dog will follow about as fast as she can run once the assistant releases her.

  An alternative would be to carry your dog away from her backing position, and lead her to the bird when she points, flush and  shoot the bird, and you are the smart dog that finds birds better than she does.  Throwing a dead bird into the brush, firing a shot, then getting her to retrieve would be my third choice.  Try a combination, depending on what is available, at the time.

  Even if she goes back to her old habits, firing a gun in the distance will work better after repeating this exercise a few times.
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