That Quail Place Forum
Production and Business => Propagation - Advanced Science => Topic started by: skipper3905 on April 09, 2008, 08:56:44 PM
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Six days ago I released about 150 bobwhites at 5 weeks old. Released in two batches. I had three groups from same hatch. Each group about 75 birds. One batch I released at exactly 5 weeks. The next at 5 1/2 weeks. Still have last batch in pen. Planning on letting them go at six weeks. Was sort of following the surragator idea on time frame, though I don't have a surragator. I do have pens that are somewhat remote. The birds have not seen a lot of people, though more than they would in a surragator. None of the birds looked great coming out of the brooder. First batch I put in growout pens at 4 weeks, second at 4 1/2 weeks, and last at five weeks. The worst looking ones were ones in brooder full five weeks. That is the thing that puzzles me about keeping them in surragator for release at five weeks. My brooders are larger than the surragator and birds were in fair shape when I put them in growout pens. But after a few days in the growout pens they were really jumping and flying. The surragator is just a brooder in the wild, it seems to me. When mine first came out of the brooder you could almost pick some of them up.
Yesterday, I found about 8 birds close to the pens. Found about 8 today, same area, likely same birds. Obviously, I don't expect to see all 150 birds but should see more than I have. While there is good cover, in fact very good habitat all around, the layout is such that 140 birds can't be in the area without flushing a few here and there. No reason for them to travel far, I have ample food and water at release site plus other quail in growout pens to hold them in area for a limited time. I have been working on varmints and thought I had them thinned out pretty good. Maybe not.
I was told by a pretty experienced quail hunter that in the spring quail eat a lot of grass and that really reduces their scent. I put grass clippings in their growout pens and there were oats growing in there anyway. Problem is, after I turned the first batch loose my lab was tracking them down with no problem. I doubt if a coon would have much problem either. Question, has anybody else ever heard this about grass feeding reducing scent? I have done a fair amount of reading on quail and never seen anything like that. Still, the fellow that told me this is a long time quail hunter and someone I would count as knowledgeable.
While I don't know for sure it appears I am having a very high loss rate. Way past what is possible to have and get any introduction going. Have not had any weather problems since release. Here in East Texas it is relatively warm now. I am going the release the last 75 in a different place. That may help. Not one to give up, I have another 600 due to hatch this weekend.
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Not one to give up
Is that spelled m-a-s-o-c-h-i-s-t?
Young birds don't have a lot of scent, plus, being surrounded by the green grass hides their scent. In 48 years of hunting, I've never heard of grass consumption blocking scent. I'm sure I know some little fact that he doesn't, so this may be where he gets even. It could make their poop smell sweet. They primarily eat insects, which may be in short supply, now. Did you put grit in a pan in the brooder? Did you mist them with water, or supply dusting box prior to putting in growout? They prefer wheat grass over most.
What you are doing is tough, at best. Jason, and others put a lot of research into the surrogator, and it's proper use. I suppose there are subtleties most would not catch onto, quickly.
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Wilder,
I did have grit in the brooders though I did not think I needed it since I was feeding Purina 27% gamebird chick feed. I did not have a dusting box in brooder nor did I mist the birds with water, though I should have. Have not heard of putting a dusting box in brooders but makes sense. I have heard it is worthwhile to spray with water in order to get oil on feathers to protect in rains. As I said, we have not had a rain since I released the first batch. That may be an issue with the few survivors I have but not now.
Bugs everywhere down here. Was just outside and could barely open my mouth for bugs near a light. I understand quail must feed on bugs first two weeks of life in wild which is supplemented by the 27% protien feed in captivity. That is not the issue here.
Some of the birds my lab found were in knee high green oats. Have a lot of wheat planted near pens also. Point is, the dog went right to them. Not a good sign. When he spooked them they flew well but waited far too long to fly. Had my dog jumped, he could have caught them. A bobcat or cayote would have had a easy time.
Not trying to denegrate the surragator. A lady that raises quail near me has a surragator and has not had much luck. I have seen reviews that said it worked well. It just struck me that the birds were so docile coming out of the brooder I saw little or no chance of them making it. It just seemed to me that is what they would be like coming out of a surragator. Not that that would make much difference. After a week in large growout pens with plenty of room to fly they looked great, flew well, and generally behaved somewhat wild and I still think something has nailed almost all of them.
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I've released alot of 5 week olds, only to never see them again. I can usually go back around the release sight the next day and shake up quite a few, but after that second day......they disappear. I don't believe that they are killed off that fast in my area anyway, I believe that they just move out of the area, as some of my release birds have been spotted a good mile or two away from the release site within a week of their release. I know that some make it and stay around my release sites, because they (previously released birds) will call when fresh birds are released several months later. I've also had different batches of BW's with totally different behaviorial charctaristics. I've had them up to 3 years old that where just as "wild" acting as the day they where born and I've had others that act like chickens from the day they where born. The bunch that I have now is around 7-8 months old and I have to practically kick them out of my way when entering the pen. s47 While other batches head for cover and can't even hardly find them.
Good Luck.
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Charliehorse,
Hope you are right that the quail have just moved on. Walked around for quite a while today with my dog and did not find a single one. I don't know, it just seems like out of 150 released I would see a few.
Will move 600 into hatcher this weekend. Maybe they will go better. Will be warmer five weeks from now. Weeds higher, better cover, more bugs, some grain beginning to drop so more food. Going to try releasing in a different place. Bound to be better. Maybe they just like my neighbors places better. Got 1200 acres though, they damn well ought to find some place on my land they like. Pretty inconsiderate I think.
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Skipper, do not take it personal. My "bird guy" once told me " The reason they pile up is because they are stupid." Deep, huh?
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........well ought to find some place on my land they like. Pretty inconsiderate I think.
LOL! Same here! :-|
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If stocking game birds was easy, and always successful, we would have 1960s populations everywhere.
We've had good results on three properties, using adult(ish) Georgia Giants, but that was in very heavy 3-5 year old cover. Generally, I think you'll have better luck with the Surrogator type method. It's pretty early for young birds, even in Texas. Maybe in a growout pen until 10-12 weeks old, if pen has natural cover, and ZERO human contact, after first 4-5 weeks.
One big advantage of insects is conditioning the young birds to search for food. I believe grit helps with prepared feeds, even though it is not mandatory. Look at the granules, there are often pieces of hard corn visible. Grit is needed for grass, insects, and, of course, whole seeds. Grit may help stimulate secretion, and enzyme activity (I don't know this, but may have heard or read it). Starting their "new, wild" life with a gizzard full of granite, and oily feathers couldn't hurt.
Even moisture from frost, dew, or splashing through a mud puddle might be a problem. Consider what would happen, if you were sitting in the living room in cotton pajamas, and your loving spouse spritzed you with a spray bottle, just in two little spots. Then, if the dogs were raising hell outside, and you ran out to check on them. It's 60 degrees out, not bad, but the sun is down. Chilly yet? No problem, except the door locked automatically, and your "loving spouse" is in the shower. Now add to that shock the fact that you didn't get much to eat the last three days, because you don't have much hunting experience and your parents aren't there to teach you. I wonder if it might be helpful to feed a higher calorie/fat diet a week or so prior to release in cooler weather.
The big problem is lack of solid research. Most Game Departments have given up on stocking. The folks who developed the Surrogator are about the only ones I know about. I don't think they have suggested misting, or dust baths, but it has to help. I know it does when raising to adulthood, for training, or field trial.
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Wilder,
I am pretty much in agreement with everything you said. Even though it is getting fairly warm here this is way to early for 5 week old BWs to be out in a natural state. That can't be positive. A later release would be better.
I really like the idea of spraying water in the brooder. I have heard people spraying them with a water hose in the growout pen but spraying sounds much better and generally makes more sense. How often would you suggest?
Would just sand, which has small pebbles, work as grit and dusting box in brooder?
I plan on the next batch of eggs to be Georgia's. Going to order them in about 3 weeks. Very glad to hear they have made it on your place. I have about 20 of them in pens now and they are just beautiful birds. Would love to get them going on my place. Frankly, I was afraid their size would keep them flying as well as they need to survive. What part of the country are you in?
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I really like the idea of spraying water in the brooder. I have heard people spraying them with a water hose in the growout pen but spraying sounds much better and generally makes more sense. How often would you suggest?
If I remember correctly, I'll start spraying on them when they are fairly covered with feathers. I just use a spray bottle about once a day, every other day or so......basically whenever I'm in the mood and feeling oinery :evil: (It can rain anytime in the wild) :grin: I've been known to spray some adults with a waterhose when it's been blazzin' hot.....they seem to like it and stand still for it.........sometimes. ^-^
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Skipper,
Sorry for a redundant post on another section of quail place forum. The project I am planning is between 400 and 500 acres and with much less intensity than you are using. Please keep posting your results with both quail and pheasant.
I am trying some trial habitat in my pastures this year. If my trial does not work and your extensive efforts does not work, I probably do not need to try to reestablish quail next spring or think about establishing pheasant.
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If the land you release birds on has all the things that they need to survive and is isolated by being surrounded on all sides by tillable farm land,Then you have a chance to hold birds on your property.If not they will dissapate as they will travel great distance.I was hunting on a game preserve (DNR property)In area 2 and the quail were checked b/4 i left for home.They had leg bands that they said was put on them 5 miles away.They were trapped wild and banded long b/4 the hunting season started.We have a place about 30acres that also has a 30acre lake that we plant food plots,Sorghem,egyptian wheat and a quail mixture also sun flowers.We release some at 6 wks and release the rest a week b/4 hunting starts and we have pretty good hunting more with our cameras than the gun.Eventually they all dissapear as the predators thin them out pretty rapidly.Somehow though when Spring weather arrives so do a couple of quail.Remember a pair of quail establish a lot of land for there territory.the male will run out other birds.I have been restocking for 5 years and if you want some for your self,release during the hunting season.Deadeye
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I just had a male return to the house yesterday after being released about 2 miles away, around a week ago.
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What about a different approach ?
Maybe they should be around humans, dogs etc. Scare the birds with noise everytime you go into there cage making them scared of people. (not to get them hurt though ) Maybe a remote toy with a coon skin cover chasing them around just a little. Just a though, but I could be nuts. Do I need s85 ?
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What about a different approach ?
Maybe they should be around humans, dogs etc. Scare the birds with noise everytime you go into there cage making them scared of people. (not to get them hurt though ) Maybe a remote toy with a coon skin cover chasing them around just a little. Just a though, but I could be nuts. Do I need s85 ?
Good thinkin'! ^-^ You might be on to something...............
Just go in there, chase them around and scare the livin' daylights out of 'em!! Grap a couple and let 'em scream bloody murder.....maybe even break a couple legs and wings to make sure your message sinks in? I'd even go as far as getting naked and slipping into a coyote hide, complete with ears and jaws, bite a couple of them on the wings and hang on for dear life while it thrashes around trying to get away.....screaming all the while you're making examples out of them for the others to see. Maybe add some wings for the full "falcon" effect while I'm at it? They'll be scared $hitless of their own shadows by the time I'm done. End result........Pure 100% wild birds. ^-^
Super Genius!!
a31
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What about a different approach ?
Maybe they should be around humans, dogs etc. Scare the birds with noise everytime you go into there cage making them scared of people. (not to get them hurt though ) Maybe a remote toy with a coon skin cover chasing them around just a little. Just a though, but I could be nuts. Do I need s85 ?
Good thinkin'! ^-^ You might be on to something...............
Just go in there, chase them around and scare the livin' daylights out of 'em!! Grap a couple and let 'em scream bloody murder.....maybe even break a couple legs and wings to make sure your message sinks in? I'd even go as far as getting naked and slipping into a coyote hide, complete with ears and jaws, bite a couple of them on the wings and hang on for dear life while it thrashes around trying to get away.....screaming all the while you're making examples out of them for the others to see. Maybe add some wings for the full "falcon" effect while I'm at it? They'll be scared $hitless of their own shadows by the time I'm done. End result........Pure 100% wild birds. ^-^
Super Genius!!
a31
j45
I'd even spend the gas money to see this one in action j41
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Hey Chuck....how much smoke from fires have you been breathing ?
s020
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I've never inhaled the smoke from a grass fire!!
j4
s020
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Skipper,
After rereading your post.......part of your problem is that you released way too many birds in a single location. They'll stick together after being released, sort of a "follow the leader" kinda deal. If a few keep moving on out of the country, the others will follow. I always release around 10 in any given location (spring/summer releases). You should have been able to make about 15 release sites throughout your property with that amount of birds. If they want to group back together, they'll have to do it on their own. Plus, by releasing that amount of birds in a single local, the chances of being spotted and the chances of a predator of any kind catching one/some/many is greatly increased. The ground would look like it was moving with that many birds moving in any given area..............easy to spot.
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Charliehorse,
That is likely a good idea. I will release in smaller groups next time. I have about 300 going out in about 3 weeks. May try some at six or seven weeks also.
I did see 7 of them beside one of the feeders I put out about a week ago. Been looking for them since but no luck.
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Charliehorse, and Steve, Your replies were great. I laughed so hard I almost got sick. Thanks guys for making my day. Without a sense of humor Jack would be a dull boy and I've been a dull person all my life maybe it's time for a change???? j45
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Just sort of a update on quail release I've been trying. Just about zero luck so far. I released over 1,000 through the year and occasionally see a few. No more than five in a covey and I suspect that is not enough for any group to survive the winter. Released at different ages, different locations, different times of the year, different amounts in each release. Just no luck to speak of. Still improving habitat though and will try again starting this spring.
Got pens in remote area, almost no exposure to people before release. Kept traps out and keeping predator somewhat controled. Have quite a few big fields (with proper cover at proper distance) but had some big trees still in the fileds. Think hawks might be nailing them from the trees so removing them. See a few hawks but no more than when I was a kid in East Texas and quail were common.
Have 7 large pens, good cover in them. Lots of seeding plants. They even get some bugs. Rotate the pens.
When I come across released birds I see they don't fly like wild quail. Too low and burst out too late. Can't be good for predator avoidance. During nesting season I never heard a "bob-white" mating call. I could hear them, just never the mating call. Assume that means none were mating or making the effort.
I know chicks in wild just eat bugs first two weeks. Somehow I have it in my mind that is a important difference between pen and wild birds. 27% gamebird starter still does not have the protein power of bugs. Also could be the exoskeleton of bug plays a role. Both maybe. Possible some effect on brain development first two weeks. Have not read that anywhere but a big difference between natural state and pen raised. Going to try mealy worm supplement and will see if that makes a difference. Somehow, there is a wired difference between wild and pen quail beyond human exposure. Flight characteristics, egg laying, coveying, etc. Not a genetic thing, eggs from wild and then pen raised display same problems.
Going to try some different forbs and grains this year. Egyptian wheat looks good, gets up over 8'. Had some out from a gamebird seed mix I used but I think will be good for a whole field. Found a good strain of field corn, Yellow Dent, will try that also. Have quite a bit of wild peas that should volunteer this year. Of course have ragweed and will put milo out again. Food and habitat just not the problem. Going to start pheasant release this year also. Got some Whitewing crosses for brooders that seem pretty wild, for sure a lot more wild than the quail. Hope I have better luck with them than quail.
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Thanks a bunch for the great info from your first hand experience. If only you can figure out what's happening to them. I believe that alot of what I have released moved on down the road, based on what I've heard from people in the area.
s98 and good luck!
s87
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Charliehorse,
Have had a few neighbors mention they had seen one or two at a time. There was a real covey at one of my neighbors house but they disappeared a few months back. I actually saw two today but they were the first in a week or so. One flew well, the other I could have kicked. Problem is just two together in the winter. Not promising.
I think I am going to release about 15 or 20 tomorrow. These are about 25 weeks old, too old. Winter is a bad release time. Releasing at the right age and the right time of the year has not done me a lot of good. Will see if doing things wrong works any better.
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Saw the first large covey of quail on my land today. Was on my track hoe pushing down a couple of trees I thought were just hawk perches. Looked down and saw three walking beside track hoe. Killed engine and watched. Saw five more, then three more. Probably a few more I missed. Got out and walked toward them. They did not flush like a wild covey and when they flew they flew lower than wild quail. I have released a number of Georgias and regular northerns. These were all northerns. The quail I released in this area were northerns, about four months ago. I did release some 30 Georgias in the general area today. They were all over 28 weeks and doubt if they will make it. Very good habitat area. If they do, that will tell me something.
Very happy to see a full covey, nevertheless. I now suspect there are other coveys in the area that I have missed.
If there is anyone out there trying pheasant and quail introduction or knows someone else that is. I sure would appreciate it if you would PM me. I have several ideas on this that I would like to bounce around. Might save me some time, might get good ideas from others, outside chance I could help someone. This is about the most active board on gamebirds I have found but mostly people that seem to have become friends over time and and mostly general chat. Nothing at all wrong with that. Just not much information on introduction release. I come on this forum from time to time and should have made notes on those that I could tell have a interest in this subject, but I didn't.
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My first thought was that the ones you saw were also too old when released. Possibly not, but definitely too tame. They usually stay pretty wild, up to 4-6 weeks, no matter how they are raised.
The real benefit of planted birds, is the next Springs' hatch. And even more, in the second season crop. Protect them from predators, as much as possible, running hounds are the most effective, since even the ones that get away may not return, if food is plentiful on neighboring properties. But do everything legally possible, and concider everything.
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Some more success on quail release. A neighbor called me today to look at a covey of quail that had been coming to feeders in their yard. A very large covey, maybe 25 birds, all Georgia, large and very healty looking. I'm pretty sure these were birds released right out of my flight pens about 10 weeks ago. These birds had to be around 30 weeks old then. Pretty surprising they have made it.
Two other neighbors serveral miles away have seen at least two coveys. I don't know what release they came from or whether they were Northerns or Georgias. Nevertheless that is four coveys I am aware of now. I am sure there are more.
I am not sure how many I have released this year. Could be 700. I think I may have 13% or 14% success rate so far. If that is true, I am pretty happy. Of course, no idea how many will survive the winter or if any will propagate in the spring.
Come spring I will be releasing more.
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Let a bunch of adult quail go in the spring they will go to nest. If possable let some breeding take place in your pen then release them. This will help fertilize all the female
even if some thing happens to the male
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Kolby,
I am going to do that. Everything I have read says must release 5-7 weeks old. I think there is something to that but now that I actually see some of my old birds make it (30+ weeks old) I am thinking they may have a chance also. Very few have survived regardless of age but I expected that.
I have 15 prs of Georgias in rollout pens now. Plan to start releasing young birds in spring also.
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I have read about the 6-7 week releasing too. But in my yard I always let go adult Bobs early May because I have picked my breeders and let the rest go. This is far from ideal Bob habitat but every yr late Aug-sept. a brood of bobs about 8-10 wk old
shows up. No native Bobs around my area in CT.
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I have read about the 6-7 week releasing too. But in my yard I always let go adult Bobs early May because I have picked my breeders and let the rest go. This is far from ideal Bob habitat but every yr late Aug-sept. a brood of bobs about 8-10 wk old
shows up. No native Bobs around my area in CT.
Are they ones born and brooded in the wild surviving? This is what I'm wanting to do is release a few around my house where I can keep the varmits thinned way down. We do have a few wild coveys around hoping they will meet up with the wild ones and increase some numbers.
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You need some cover that is suited for quail. Info on quail habitat is everywhere. I said older Bobs released in may will try to rear young in the wild. The more adults
released will rise the odds and better habitat will also rise thier odds. These 2nd generation quail are much wilder and have a big advantage over young bobwhites released into the wild.