quail dying

[amerioutfitter]

Help!!!!!!

I'm brooding my first batch of bobwhites.  I received 1000 day-olds in the mail two days ago.  I lost 44 the first day and 54 the second day and 50 today.  I know they get stressed during shipping, and I expected I would lose some, but I'm starting to feel like 148 is too many. 

My brooder is 10 by 20 ft, fully insulated (no drafts), with dry pine litter (4 inches) thick. 

I'm using an LP gas brooder (pancake) and have kept the temp, directly under the brooder and 1 inch above the litter, at 100 degrees. 

I have a 9 ft radius brooder guard setup with 2 nature ways nipple watering system inside the brooder guard (also have two 1 gallon water founts with pea gravel in the trough to prevent drowning). 

I'm using nutrena turkey starter with 30% protien on 8 paper plates, spread evenly through the ring (some close to the heat and some away.)

The quail that are left look very healthy, they have always been equally distributed throughout the ring (no piling under or away from the heat). 

They are eating like crazy, I'm refilling the food on the plates every 3 hours (food is getting scratched out.  The chicks are hammering the nipple waterers and I have tested every nipple for waterer and all look good.

I'll be in there one minute and the birds are energetic running around eating, chirping, evenly dispursed, I'll leave for 20 minutes and then come back and 2 or 3 will be dead.

What am I doing wrong?  I knew there would be rough times, but it is fustrating because I don't see any of the warning signs that I've read about (piling, panting, not eating, not drinking) everything looks good.

Is it normal to lose over 10% when they are shipped?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!

[chick with chicks]

FIrst let me say that I am brand new to this too.
But.....if you read down the list to my first post about chicks dying suddenly....it was suggested to me that my brooder was too warm at 100 degrees. That is what I had read and the instructions that came with my incubator but nonetheless it turned out to be too hot.
I lowered my brooder to 95 and that did the trick. I stopped losing chicks and all that remained are very healthy.
Hopefully someone with more experience will answer you soon. But if it were me I would lower the temp to 95 and then 5 degrees every week.
Good luck.

[amerioutfitter]

Just read your post, thats helpful, I will reduce the heat to 95 when I get home. I have someone checking on them every 2 hours and I'v only lost 8 since 8am this morning, 36 less than the number yesterday at this time.

Were your quail all away from the heat when you had it at 100, or were the evenly spread-out? I have many that are enjoying the area direcly around the lamp, and others are on the outer area of the brooder guard.

I read that if they were too hot they would be running from the lamp, but I'm finding out that these University publications often contradict the real world (and each other).

Thanks for the help!

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

Do you have adequate ventilation on the propane heaters?

Steve
Pheasnt Hollow Farm

[amerioutfitter]

that is a great question, I don't know.  i originally put an exhaust fan in on one end, in a hallway outside the brooder room.  The wall between the hallway and the brooder room has a 4 ft by 4 inch slot cut in the wall, 16 inches off the ground.  Then on the opposite wall (exterior wall of the brooder room) I have a 6ft by 4inch slot cut in the top of the wall with a damper that allows the air flow to be controlled, the idea was to run the fan and pull air through the room, but when I turn the fan on, they pile up.  So I i have th damper slightly opened with the fan off.  So I man not have enough ventilation.  Any suggestions? Here is a link to the brooder plan I used:

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/plans/brplan.htm

I built one of these, the arrows in the stall show the air flow pattern.  I belive your right, I may have a ventilation problem.

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

that is a great question, I don't know.  i originally put an exhaust fan in on one end, in a hallway outside the brooder room.  The wall between the hallway and the brooder room has a 4 ft by 4 inch slot cut in the wall, 16 inches off the ground.  Then on the opposite wall (exterior wall of the brooder room) I have a 6ft by 4inch slot cut in the top of the wall with a damper that allows the air flow to be controlled, the idea was to run the fan and pull air through the room, but when I turn the fan on, they pile up.  So I i have th damper slightly opened with the fan off.  So I man not have enough ventilation.  Any suggestions? Here is a link to the brooder plan I used:

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/plans/brplan.htm

I built one of these, the arrows in the stall show the air flow pattern.  I belive your right, I may have a ventilation problem.

amerioutfitter,

How you making out? I hope your losses have come to a end.

I don't have a solution for this. The exhaust layout seems feasible, and could cause a major draft if the exhaust fan is pulling to much CFM or they may be piling due to the noise being generated by the fan.

Propane is heavier then air, and if their was a leak would settle to the floor of the brooder. Can you install a carbon monoxide monitor and a gas leak monitor.

From your first post, you stated that the building is insulated and draft free. this in itself would lead me to believe, oxygen deprivation, since this type of heater uses oxygen, it may be drawing more then what the chicks getting if the air intake vent and the exhaust are closed or slightly open.

Also as stated, 100* in the brooder is too hot if the birds are that confined in the 9 ft radius brooder guard. 95* at floor level should be more then sufficient. then dropping 5* at the end of each week until the outside ambient temps are equal. Or discontinuing the heat if the ambient outside temps exceed the brooder temps, which is common sense. Just remember to put it back on in the evening if the temps fall past you 4-5 weeks temp schedule.

I would also think that the heater being 1 inch off the ground, and the 100* temps as you stated with 4 inches of bedding posing a fire hazard. What is the bedding temperture at the base(bottom).

I have in my pheasant brooder 6-250W lamps that are 10-12 inches off the ground with 2-4 inches of straw and the heat generated beneath the straw concerns me at times. Next year to evelated my concern of a potential fire hazard, I will place 2-4 inches of pool sand in the surrounding lamp area since they seem to like to dust their as well.

Sorry, not much help this time.

Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm

[amerioutfitter]

Thanks for your input  Steve!

The brooder is actually 32 inches off the ground, I meant to say that the brooder temp, 1 inch off the ground, was 100 degrees.  Yes 1 inch off the ground would scare me too, definite fire hazard.

I lost 13 chicks last night, with the brooder temp at 95 degrees (lost 40 somethihg the night before, so this is a vast improvement).  Maybe these were chicks that took time to die from overheating.  I'll be watching closely today, hopefully the temp adjustment did the trick.  I also opened the damper all the way, with the fan off, but I proped the fan louvers open, so natural breezes can circulate air.

The chicks that are left are jumping in the air and all are chirping very loudly.  They are still evenly spread-out through the brooder ring.

Should I keep the lights off at all times or turn on during the day and off at night?  I notice when I keep the lights on, they go crazy, eating and drinking, but when the lights go off they settle down.

Again thanks for all your suggestions!  I'll give you an udpate later today!

[Pheasant Hollow Farm]

What type of natural lighting do you have in there?
If there is no natural lighting, I would recommend using fluorescent shop lights in the 40watt and painting the bulbs red. The darker the color red the better.

They will still be able to see and eat, but this will reduce the possibility of pecking and cannibalism.

Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm

[CharlieHorse]

carbon monoxide

That was the first thing that crossed my mind when you mentioned "no drafts".  I would suspect that even if a CO detector was used that it may not be sensitive enough for lower PPM's (parts per million) that may kill chicks, yet the PPM levels aren't high enough to activate the alarm on the CO detector?   Just a thought.

I always turned the lights out at night, just as it would be in the wild.  Gives a rest period for the birds, etc.

Is it normal to lose over 10% when they are shipped?

I couldn't answer that, but I wouldn't think it was abnormal.  I'll put it this way.....it's not uncommon for me to loose 10-20 birds out of 100 that I hatched myself, therefore, using the same percentages.........100-200 may be the norm, especially when shipped?

Good Luck!

[amerioutfitter]

lost 20 more from 8am to 8pm today.  The temp is 95 under the brooder and 92 on the edges of the ring.  The quail don't look sick before they die, they're all jumping then boom, stiff as a board, no signs of sickness before they kick out.

I put in a very small fan in the hallway and left the damper at the far end slightly cracked.  I felt the air being sucked through the room, and it is very lite.  I've had that fan running for 2 hours and I don't see any signs of drafts or chilling, some are gathered around the lamp, but most are eating drinking, running around.  So I think the air flow issue has been solved. 

I just have a 60 watt incadesent bulb in the house, when I turn it on, they go nuts, when it goes off, they settle down.  I had it on all day.  I'll get a red bulb tomorrow. Thanks again!

[slider]

What bothers me about the whole deal is you say that the chicks are jumping around and chirping..In my experience in raising quail they are very quite when they are content and things are right for them..and when things are wrong they start chirping.Good Luck your getting some great advise..

[CharlieHorse]

I'm with slider on the chirping thing, but I'm not sure exactly how bad the chirping is, because there's "normal happy chirping" and then there's " REALLY BAD CHIRPING!"  And as he said about the jumping, "they are very quite content when things are right for them".  You may have more of a pecking problem than you realize, it's sometimes hard to catch them doing it, especially with that many chicks its impossible to watch them all.   

My brooder is lit with a 7 watt red bulb. I have a 250 watt red bulb as a backup/booster heat source on a dimmer. It is only used in the winter as a supplement for the main heater.  Although I can turn it on and really brighten it up in there like a regular 60 or 100 watt bulb would and the chicks go wild, I mean absolutely bonkers to the point that they could injure/kill themselves or others.  Of course I seldom do this, and only for my entertainment.     Keeping this in mind.......I thought that possibly the bright light may be too much and is having the same effect on yours, as it does on my BW's when the bright lights are turned on.  I'd be toning down the lights.

Those birds are plenty old enough to be eating out of a feeder......I'd ditch the plates, that kind of treatment is only needed during the first day or so until they figure out what the feed is.

I personnally would think that pine litter is or would be a problem, especially 4" of it?I know some use wood chips/shavings and have no apperant problems, but I won't use it. All I see is unwanted consumption of the stuff and a mess to deal with.

 JMO

[Tonya]

I don't know if this helps at all because I know nothing about Game birds but I use to manage a pet store in Montana and we were never allowed to use pine shavings because the pine has an oil in it that is toxic to birds.  Just a thought.
Tonya

[amerioutfitter]

Haven't lost any birds today!!!!

Paper plates were out yesterday morning, replaced them with regular feeders.  I added one section of brooder guard and I'm going to get a red light now I think that will help a bunch.  Thanks for the info about pine litter.  I've read multiple places that it was fine to use wood shavings as long as you use pine only.  But wouldn't suprise me if the shavings were contributing to the problem.  What is better to use for litter?

Thanks again for all of the great advice!

[greyghost]

Straw.