That Quail Place Forum
Raising Gamebirds => Health Issues => Topic started by: wildergamebirds on October 31, 2007, 10:33:19 PM
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And how do I treat it?
Save the wear and tear on your fingers, by omitting the advice to take a bird to a Vet. There is one on the way. For about $150-$200, I should have the results 3-10 days after the disease has run it's course.
Also, I know what went wrong that caused the problem, now I need to deal with what I have.
Does anyone know, for sure, if LS 50 and Bacitracin can be combined without adverse effects? I'm considering a three day overlap.
I have adult birds (BW) dying, some with full breasts, some pretty thin. The intestinal, and liver lesions do not completely match any of the photos, or descriptions I've seen of necrotic, or ulcerative enteritis. I am seeing what seems to be a symptom of one in one bird, symptoms of both in another. (I have zero experience with these, but have seen hundreds of healthy Quail innards). My problem may be that on line photos are only of very bad lesions.
I'm thinking Terramycin may have suppressed some of the symptoms.
There is probably coccidiosis present, also, although I have treated for that, and should have it under control.
My plan is to treat with LS 50, first, since it is available, and add Bacitracin, when it arrives, Friday. I'm thinking it would be safer to finish the LS 50 treatment first. But, I may end up with even more dead birds, if I wait. I suppose adult birds should have the best chance to handle both treatments. I have not seen one anti-biotic listed as a treatment for both. Bacitracin is listed as a prevention for both, and a treatment for necrotic. Lincomycin is listed as treatment and preventive for necrotic.
I also have a question about dosage. I have seen recommendations of around 64 mg. per gallon of water. The label on the LS 50 bottle translates to 668 mg. per gallon. Can the safety margin be that large? Or are chickens tougher the first week of life than broilers and Quail? Or is the enteritis-causing bacteria killed with a lower dosage?
And finally, if anyone here has used either, what measurement, or weight has been successful in real world birds (LS 50, and BMD 50)?
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I'd seek help from a vet. :eek:
Sorry, couldn't help it, no help from me. I'm just a bloomin' idiot that has never had to deal with any disease as of this date and would be asking you questions if such a thing were to occur. :grin:
For about $150-$200, I should have the results 3-10 days after the disease has run it's course.
Isn't that handy. :x
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Well I just keep everything clean and well kept and I have had only one bird die from diease. You are right when a bird gets sick if is going to die it usually dies before you get the test back, and that money you spent to firgure out what was wrong could of just replaced the bird many times over. In my opion if a gamebird gets sick it is either going to be a live in 3 days and live happily ever after or it is going to be dead :angel:...Sorry I couldn't help and good luck!
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that money you spent to firgure out what was wrong could of just replaced the bird many times over
Unless what the bird(s) have will kill all of them, if which case you'll have wasted several days that could have saved them.
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Reeves, we are experiencing the same "illness" your birds have. Some are thin with full crops; while some are fat, seemingly healthy looking birds. We are losing birds every day, tonight he found 7 dead, all different cages. Interestingly the Chuckers do not have the disease. We treated with Terramycin for 5 days, mega dosing all the birds, seemed to help for a day.
Does not look like they have the diarrhea that some diseases cause; and they don't have any lung involvement. We did have a couple birds, early in the season who had some eye disease, we killed them right away.
The only thing that I can see that we are doing different is the feed but if it were coming from the feed, the chuckers would be sick as well.
Been a dry year and histoplasmosis or coccydiosis are airborne but mostly affect humans, at least that is what my microbiology instructor seems to think, but...the vet we have to take the birds to is very far away and its expensive to take them, although at this rate, we will have no birds to deal with anyway...
Any suggestions would be helpful.
Lori
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Reeves, we are experiencing the same "illness" your birds have.
Huh ?
Better read the first post again.....
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Reeves, I did read the first post.
I don't know where to get all the stuff you are talking about giving your birds.
I have not taken any of the birds apart to see if they have intestinal lesions, I suppose I should...
Sorry if I am asking the wrong questions...where do I purchase LS50 and Bacitracin
I apologize if I sound desperate but if I can't figure out what is wrong my whole flock is gone.
Lori
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:roll:
Fivehollers,
Look at the first post and the "Author" of it......."Reeves" doesn't have this problem and the author is seeking advice too. :wink:
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Reeves, we are experiencing the same "illness" .......that you have.
:eek:
You can only hope that you don't for the sake of the human race!! That would be awful.
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Ok my bad :laugh:
I am in a panic tho...so reading really fast and trying to assimilate as much information as I can.
Reeves...so sorry for the mix up
...as for my problem...we have lost so many birds to whatever this is and as most can not afford the drive or cost when we get there for the necropsy...
I did go to the Merck website and read about some of the illnesses and have narrowed it down. I am a nurse and right now in MicrobiologyII, I tried to talk my instructor into letting me stain some slides and see just what I am dealing with...she would not go for it even for the education, and my obvious zest for learning...so
I got some LS 50 could not get BMD because the place I went to get it would not sell to me for off label use...but did find some Neo-Sol which is one ingredient in BMD but...its all a guessing game.
The vet says the LS50 and BMD can be given at the same time but the BMD needs to be given longer than the LS50
Oh what fun...again I am sorry for the mix-up Reeves I did not mean to offend.
Lori
We are to sell
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I got some LS 50 could not get BMD because the place I went to get it would not sell to me for off label use...
In which Socialist Republic do you live?
You NEED it "For the prevention of ulcerative enteritis" (which is a quote from the label under growing quail). I doubt it is effective in treating quail with advanced ulcerative enteritis. I am going back to feed with Bacitracin and am sick every time I think about allowing myself to be talked out of using medicated feed.
I am seldom asked why I want a product, or for what purpose. The correct answer to these is either, N.O.Y.F.B., or N.O.Y.F.B., A.
You could order it on line from Valley Vet Supply.
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=8a1f61bd-403a-45d1-ac4a-eb713767299d
They charged me $18.34 for next day air through UPS. I ordered three packages, plus neomycin, and lincomycin. LS50 is labeled for chickens under 7 days only. Lincomycin is the "L" in LS50 and is suggested for quail, by Merck, but quail are not mentioned on the label. I assume they subsidized the next day charges, because they normally offer free shipping.
Or you could send someone else to buy the BMD to treat bloody scours in their hog.
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BMD is also used to fight secondary infections associated with enteritis. I'd say the person who refused to sell it to you is complicit in the death of any birds you've lost, since.
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wilder,
Have you gotten anywhere with your problem? Did you get anything figured out and is it working?
Good Luck.
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Ok,
I have done my own necropsys and I did sacrifice a healthy bird for comparison. Some of the already dead birds do not have much intestine at all its just mushy, some of the not so advance birds have intestine but they have these bloody ulcerations, of course the healthy bird was nice, pink, all large and small intestine intact the only other thing I noticed was that in the sick birds they had VERY full crops and stomachs.
We have been medicating with the ocytetracycline and started last night with the neomycin and only have tow dead birds tonight. Had I been a smart girl I would have lied and told them I needed to treat my hogs but...hindsight is twenty twenty...and next time I will lie, or I will send my husband saturday to get the BMD
Going to start the LS tonight.
Thanks for all your assistance...
I will let you know
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Some additional information from my autopsy/necropsy...there was no difference in the crop or gizzards of the fatter sick bird to the skinny sick bird. The fatter of the two was starting to lose its feathers but had not lost as many as the very skinny bird. The heart and lungs looked normal, like the heathy bird.
In retrospect...the things we did this year different from anyother year was to spray under the cages with water, creating a wet, warm environment. I was trying to keep the dust to a minimum but I think I created the sickness. Colstridum and other mycoplasmas just love that type of environment, warm, wet and if the organism is a spore former it could have been there for a long time just waiting for the right conditions. So...
I have to deal with what I have, maybe I should go back to school to be a vet not advance my nursing degree,because finding someone who will talk to me about thet birds is hard enough let alone anyone someone who might know what I am talking about.
I am grateful for this forum
Lori
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Ok,
I have done my own necropsys and I did sacrifice a healthy bird for comparison. Some of the already dead birds do not have much intestine at all its just mushy, some of the not so advance birds have intestine but they have these bloody ulcerations, of course the healthy bird was nice, pink, all large and small intestine intact the only other thing I noticed was that in the sick birds they had VERY full crops and stomachs.
We have been medicating with the ocytetracycline and started last night with the neomycin and only have tow dead birds tonight. Had I been a smart girl I would have lied and told them I needed to treat my hogs but...hindsight is twenty twenty...and next time I will lie, or I will send my husband saturday to get the BMD
Going to start the LS tonight.
Thanks for all your assistance...
I will let you know
Some additional information from my autopsy/necropsy...there was no difference in the crop or gizzards of the fatter sick bird to the skinny sick bird. The fatter of the two was starting to lose its feathers but had not lost as many as the very skinny bird. The heart and lungs looked normal, like the heathy bird.
In retrospect...the things we did this year different from anyother year was to spray under the cages with water, creating a wet, warm environment. I was trying to keep the dust to a minimum but I think I created the sickness. Colstridum and other mycoplasmas just love that type of environment, warm, wet and if the organism is a spore former it could have been there for a long time just waiting for the right conditions. So...
I have to deal with what I have, maybe I should go back to school to be a vet not advance my nursing degree,because finding someone who will talk to me about thet birds is hard enough let alone anyone someone who might know what I am talking about.
I am grateful for this forum
Lori
This last quote was taken from the topic Re: Tested birds
We are NPIP and I guess had the opportunity to test some of the birds for AI but there was a window of opportunity and we missed it buy ONE DAY...we could have sent as many sick and well birds as we could send for free to find out what was wrong with our BW as long as they could test for AI as well, but by the time the Dept. of Ag vet got back in touch with us our "free period" was up. Figures...now losing birds by the dozens and don't have the cash to get the birds checked. HUMPH!!
Lori,
Although I don't have a solution or an answer to your problem, I would still call the Dept of Ag and ask to speak to their head vet. Tell them the problem and demand that an animal health inspector come down and take samples of recent dead birds and tell them that they are dying as you speak. Tell them that you may suspect AI.
The last thing the State AG wants is to find out that they didn't check for the possibility of AI. Tell them that you want cultures taken from the fecal matter and you want the results as to how to treat.
In the state of WV, there is a grant for testing AI. I am on that program and they come every 90 days. When I had a bad case of hens (pheasants) only dying, and no cocks, they sent an animal health inspector down that same day. He drove 200 miles to get to my farm. While he was here they took liver, blood, and fecal samples from the dead.
I had birds (hens) being tested and died in their hands. They called the state vet and asked if they should open the bird for more samples. They took fresh fecal from the large intestine and liver samples. They also found massive hemorrhage of the large intestines.
They then randomly tested the cock birds. Within 36 hrs, I got a phone call from the state vet stating, the birds had worms and to treat them with levamisole hydrochloride since the worms were Capillaria (capillary worms).
Even though the cock birds had them, the hens were more susceptible to the worms due to the low immune system while they were egg laying. Depending on the stage of infection, most birds recovered after the worming.
So Lori, push the issue with your state AG and remind them who actually pays their salary.
Best of luck to you.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Actually I was suprised that the Dept of Ag vet that we called and who tests us each year to make sure we remember how to test for NPIP did not push the issue himself. With the prevalance of AI I figured they would jump at the chance to test the birds.
I have a call into him since doing my own limited research and am waiting for him to call me back, at that time I will push for someone to come out and test for everything. If it is something like what you are experiencing it seems like a no brainer.
In the meantime...we are down to the breeders only now, and the combination of medications seems to be working (fingers crossed here) we did not lose any birds last night...have no more birds to train the GSP with so it was an expensive lesson. We are gearing up for next year and I am looking into places I can get the antibiotics I need BEFORE I need them, so I don't run into this supply problem.
Thanks for all your assistance.
Lori
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Still no answer from the boss of the dept. of ag vet who takes care of this area.
Will turn into the squeaky wheel this week tho.
Good news is that we have only lost one bird since starting on the LS 50 and neomycin, and he was really sick, did not think he would make it anyway.
Lori
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Wilder and Lori what did you come up with ??
I am stocking up even before I get any more birds just to guard against the same or similar.
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Jake - here is some more reading....three pages: http://www.gbwf.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4580
I see you are a member there, so you may have already read it ?
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Yes, but its good to share here, info seems to spread around fast over there.
BTW, got leads today on two Grouse sources here in the US. I'm going to call them this week.
This kind of a die-off is tragic if it can be prevented.