That Quail Place Forum

Production and Business => Propagation - Advanced Science => Topic started by: Iowan on June 14, 2008, 07:42:54 PM

Title: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on June 14, 2008, 07:42:54 PM
Here's the info. Been raising BW's for a few years with a friend, mostly for fun & dog training. Tried a few releases w/o success.

Now for the good part....a VERY generous landowner has bought a surrogator for us to use on his property. We have 65 two day old chicks ready to transport within the next few days..Iowa weather being the main decisive factor.

Just wondering if anyone else has tried this. I'm guessing we're the 1st!!

Land is 50- 50 CRP (very well managed & very thick) & corn/beans, along a small river.  Will post our success or failure..welcome any advice!!
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: wildergamebirds on June 15, 2008, 11:30:14 AM
  I'm not sure why you picked Huns.  Pretty expensive chicks.  I would suggest brooding them in a more normal manner until 2-3 weeks of age.  They take such special care, I doubt the Surrogator will give good results.  After three weeks, it might do the job.  Do you already have a population of Huns on the property to "adopt" the youngsters?  Have you tried the Surrogator with Quail, or Pheasant to get a feel for how they work?
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: slider on June 15, 2008, 01:17:33 PM
Wilder is right...its gona take a trick to pull this one off...save your money and do Bobwhite first..
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: puphood1 on June 16, 2008, 10:04:37 AM
My experience with raising  Huns is limited to 2 years. I find that for the first 2 weeks they need and if they get special care do very well. I have for the first 10days to 2 weeks feed them daily hard boiled eggs and good old water melon and have very few looses of the healthy chicks. I don't know if the surrogator can do this. But at 2 weeks old it may work for huns once they are past this eating ajustment period. My question is why would you use a surrogator if you have a flight pen as these birds I raised last year never tamed down at all and were released here this spring. We have lots of wild Huns here and what I have found is the birds are not to particular about very thick cover like pheasants. They are found in growing grain fields and grass with the same thickness so they can move around in under the canope. However they seem to nest in the thick stuff and then move the coveys into the adjacent grain fields. Good luck with the Huns as I have found they are worth the extra $$$ and are a great release bird....puphood1
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on June 16, 2008, 01:04:30 PM
Thanks for all the info. Yes the eggs were a little spendy, but the surrogator use is free.  Have the chicks in a brooder for now and are doing very well. Lost only 1 chick since they hatched. Doing the boiled egg thing, will ad watermelon also.

There used to be alot of Huns here 15-20 years ago, but farming practices have changed...not alot of small grains anymore, that in my opinion was key for them. I know they are very tough birds that wait out the winter storms out in the open not in heavy cover.

The flight pen is full of BW's, and they just can't handle an average winter in Northern Iowa after release.  The owner of the surrogator wanted to try Huns, and after they're released, we'll going to cycle some pheasants.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: puphood1 on June 16, 2008, 02:11:32 PM
Well I live in Alberta Canada the land of ice and hockey and if these birds can live here they can live in your area. The key is some sort of grain crops with small cover plots 40 plus acres. I have let my 30 acre hay field grow out for the last 3 years and can attest to the increase in not only Huns but Pheasants on the farm. In our area the biggest populations of Huns is with the crop and cover next to each other however in winter they benefit by hedge row cover for shelter from snow storms.
I have personally witnessed these birds in the winter tunneling under the deep snow with no obvious signs any where on top of the snow of there were abouts to a standing pointer during training. With further investigation after 6-8 Huns rocketed to the surface I found a maze of tunnels on the grain field floor where they had been scratching and feeding if I had not seen it myself I would not have believed it. There was over a foot of snow at that time and they were in close proximity to some thick hedge rows. If they do not have winter protection they either die of move away to suitable cover areas. They do not need hedge rows in the summer but they are important in their winter survival.....puphood1
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: slider on June 16, 2008, 02:21:56 PM
We did not say that they could not take the cold...its raising them in the  surrogator thats the problem...but if he does not put them in it until they are 2 to 3 weeks old then he may not have a problem. They are pretty much over the hump by them...The purpose of the surrogator is to keep them totally from human intervention..which means that most put the birds into it after leaving the hatcher.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: puphood1 on June 16, 2008, 09:45:32 PM
We did not say that they could not take the cold...its raising them in the  surrogator thats the problem...but if he does not put them in it until they are 2 to 3 weeks old then he may not have a problem. They are pretty much over the hump by them...The purpose of the surrogator is to keep them totally from human intervention..which means that most put the birds into it after leaving the hatcher.
Not trying to get anyone upset however the advantage of using Huns in the first place is from what I see they don't imprint on me at all. I have raised B.W.'s for 10 years and by the end of summer the birds tame down some what in my flight pen however the 2 years that I have raised Huns at the end of the following spring  they still want nothing to do with me and still crash into the sides of the netting etc when I enter the pen. So I guess my question is if you have a flight pen and limit your contact with them why would you go to the trouble of a surrogator? P.S I can see it with Quail, Chukar and even Pheasants that all seem to be able to tame down or imprint but I have not seen
this with Huns. just some thoughts....puphood1
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on June 18, 2008, 01:23:09 PM
Updated info...Once again I thank you for your input!! We're going to hold the birds in the brooder a while longer to ensure a healthy start.

The property should be ideal. About 700 acres. A mix of crops & grassy cover. The hillsides do have alot of Wild Plum thickets also.

I agree with you in questioning the use of the surrogater.  Please note the landowner supplied the surrogater & eggs. We already had everything else in place from our BW hobby..ie..incubators, brooding areas, & supplies.  Our only investment money wise is the the feed & time spent. My friend owns a feed store, so we buy in bulk at cost.

This project is just the product of a conversation over coffee early one cold morning last winter in a small town in Iowa.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: slider on June 18, 2008, 03:57:43 PM
Good Luck with them I hope that they do real good for you...
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: jbird on June 18, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
puphood1   (I have personally witnessed these birds in the winter tunneling under the deep snow with no obvious signs any where on top of the snow of there were abouts to a standing pointer during training. With further investigation after 6-8 Huns rocketed to the surface I found a maze of tunnels on the grain field floor where they had been scratching and feeding if I had not seen it myself I would not have believed it.)

WOW,  thats really neat! I have never heard of Huns or any other bird doing that before. I'm originally from Iowa when I grew up the winters were really cold, snow up to your --- and you thought spring would never come.
Dad always would let the Pheasant hunters go through his picked corn fields in the fall as he did not hunt himself.  I always felt sorry for the birds in January and February because of the deep snow and cold. It was nothing unusual for it to be 10 to 30 below at night and if it got above 0 during the day you thought it was a warm spell.
Anyway, good luck with your birds
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on June 26, 2008, 01:12:11 PM
The chicks have been out in the surrogator for several days now. Lost 5 the 2nd night. A cold front came through and dropped the temp to 51. This could have been prevented if we rounded off the corners...a serious flaw in the unit.  No losses at last check 3 days after.  Plan to only check them once a week from now on.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Bird Brained on June 27, 2008, 07:49:09 PM
...the advantage of using Huns...they don't imprint on me at all.

...Huns at the end of the following spring  they still want nothing to do with me...

 P.S I can see it with Quail, Chukar and even Pheasants that all seem to be able to tame down or imprint but I have not seen this with Huns.

Yeah, it's not like you could ever tame Huns to the point of eating from your hand...and this pic proves it!   :grin:

P.S. I raised them for many years and they would tame down without even trying...you actually had to work harder to make them not go tame.


Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: puphood1 on July 01, 2008, 01:31:34 PM
I have never tried to tame down my birds and as a matter of fact have gone to great lengths not to. Feeding Huns out of your hand thats great if thats what you want to do I guess. The thread is going under the assumption of trying to keep the birds as wild as possible for release hence the attempt and use of the Surrogate brooder.
I give my birds min. contact and go and feed and water my Huns once a day more to check on them when they are chicks and they want nothing to do with me at all and they are 4 weeks old now. Heah maybe I'm not treating them like pets then expecting them to live outdoors with the other pet skunks, weasels, hawks etc. I think you get my picture. I don't intend on getting my birds tame and all I was saying was my Huns with min. contact don't.  Compaired to my Quail and Pheasants treated the same way which by the way won't eat out of my hand either by the end of the year. However they are no way as wild acting as the Huns by example the Pheasants and Quail come a running to me when I enter the pen and they are out of feed which my Huns would never do.
My Huns are going next week at 5 weeks old out in the 15X 20X 100 foot  flight pen weather permitting and again will have min contact with me as every thing is set up for min. contact such for h2o and feed. These birds should be flying well at 7-8 weeks and ready for release in groups of 6-10 birds at 10-12 weeks old. I believe that even with there wildness the released Huns still have a high mortality as they have no older birds to learn from but it is still better than releasing a imprinted hand feed bird. And by the way I didn't say they could not be imprinted. Have a good day....puphood1
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Bird Brained on July 01, 2008, 07:35:43 PM
Someone had a bowl of bad post-toasties today...Is that a play on words?...."post"-toasties   lol :)

Lighten up there "hun-e", I'm just fun'n.....there I go again  :laugh:

Good lord, life's too short for such a short fuse.  Live a little, smile and have some fun.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: wildergamebirds on July 01, 2008, 09:36:27 PM

  Again, I repeat, again     huh?


  And the congregations says, in unison       whut?


  Short fuse?
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Bird Brained on July 01, 2008, 09:56:21 PM
Sorry Wilder, it's only Tues. and it's been a long week.

I must of read pups last response incorrectly (still am as a matter of fact). 

I read it with a little defensiveness poking out here and there like they had to defend themselves from my fun'n in the post prior where I quoted them saying a few times how huns just don't imprint like quail or chukar.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on July 09, 2008, 01:32:23 PM
One more week until scheduled release. No more lost birds after the 1st 2 days. The weather here has been ideal lately. No major storms in NW Ia. but enough rain to keep everthing green.  Humidity levels have really gone up lately, especially at night with heavy dew, so we're hoping that will help them out, along with a few mistings we have done.  Lots of insects mainly young grasshoppers abound.
The landowner has been kept some strips mowed in the grass for loafing/sunning areas as he's done for years for the resident pheasants. While NW Ia escaped the major floods they had east of us, we also had many heavy rains in late May/early June, so our wild bird hatch has been very, very poor. This time of year I usually see many broods along the gravel roads in the mornings, not this year.

Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: puphood1 on July 09, 2008, 06:55:13 PM
I have been to ND twice and leave in 4 days from now again and the hatch on wild pheasasnts is either slow or going to be down also  probably due to the cool /wet spring we have seen across the prairies.
 I have put my Huns out side a week ago in the flight pen and lost none they are starting to fly some what at 5 weeks. My notes from last year said they flew well by 7-8 weeks.
One more question how are you addressing their confinment and  weak wings if they are just let go from the surragator? As I assume they need at least a week to build up their wing streight?
Also on MT. Fish and wildlife's web site they have a good article on feeding wild pheasant populations using areas of uncut grass and legume that are watered in order to increase insect life and hence decrease chick mortality.
 Good luck........puphood1
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on July 18, 2008, 05:31:44 PM
The Huns were released this week. We opened the side door, not the top. Interesting to watch them file out from a distance. They seemed to be in great health and very alert to danger. The landowner said he will not harvest any huns this fall. ( My buddy & I cannot hunt there). I do have serious doubts if this did any good for the future populations, but it was fun, we learned alot, & got to enjoy hiking through some of the very little remaining CRP left in Iowa this spring/summer. Amazing what an undisturbed chunk of grass can produce in the middle of Round-Up Ready corn & beans can produce.

FYI...I did see a brood of wild huns yesterday, 5 miles from release site. A hen with 10-12 young ones ran across the gravel road near my home... That was a better site to see than than any released birds!!!

The Iowa DNR website claims that our Huns nest early spring. I have not observed many broods, but the few I have seen were certainly not hatched in May.

Any info on this would be greatly appreciated!!  Thanks
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: wildergamebirds on July 18, 2008, 10:52:22 PM

  I would suspect those are second hatches.  Either after the first was old enough to go it alone, or (more likely, after first hatch failed.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on July 19, 2008, 05:45:20 PM

  I would suspect those are second hatches.  Either after the first was old enough to go it alone, or (more likely, after first hatch failed.

I agree that they must be re-nesters.  Not enough time to be raising a 2nd brood. That is a popular myth about hens raising 2 or more broods in these parts. Talked to a DNR official 2 years ago. He said that the very young birds (pheasants)  seen in fall were the results of hens re-nesting after the 1st or 2nd clutches were unsuccessful.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: puphood1 on September 18, 2008, 07:40:24 PM
How have your released Huns made out? Have you seen them around and if so how are their numbers?
Interestingly the birds I let go this spring one stayed single and one pair did not raise a clutch. Numerous coveies around here again this year but the size of the covies are no bigger than 8-10 and probably average at about 5-6 which I consider small. I can only blame it on the cool wet spring....puphood1
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on September 24, 2008, 11:23:05 AM
Sorry, no new info on the huns. I hope to get some info from the landowner later this fall after the harvest.  I'll drive past the property some wet morning to check things out, & ask his son and grandson that will be bowhunting there starting Oct. 1.
Title: Re: Huns in surrogator
Post by: Iowan on January 10, 2009, 06:35:06 PM
Jan. 10...the end Iowa's pheasant season. No reports of the released birds! Dec. was brutal here. Lots of snow & record low temps early in the month. Still have some hope though. The property was only hunted for deer this year, so the owners never really hiked thru their land much at all. Will ask to walk the ground later this winter/ early spring. Access is very doubtful though. They want to keep all deer info secret..ie sheds, sightings  etc.  Great property, but unfortunately deer hunting is BIG here. Rumors of a giant buck brings out all kinds of illegal activity.