please HELP!

[komori35]

HELP!!  im not sure if this is a problem for the Health section or for this one, but here it is:

i have two coturnix quail, male and a female, in a nice cage.  everything was happy, they're almost a year old.  now all of a sudden they're wacking out on me.

first off, my female's feathers are practically falling off her. i know that tis NOT the season to be molting, and they dont grow back in some places.  even though i give her dust baths, they're raggedy and she doesn't groom them. nothing else seems wrong, except she's always been mute...she's still laying eggs and stuff, and eating.

my most important problem is my male. he's been deteriorating steadily.  he wont crow, or make a sound, he doesn't want to mate, he's unusually skittish, i dont think he's eating much, his testical has shruken considerably, he's dispirited in general (and he normally has a huge 'tude), he's shedding feathers, and this is where im getting concerned: his feet.  last week i found one of his toes almost cut in half. i checked the wire on the cage, there didn't seem to be any sharp edges.  now this week A QUARTER INCH OF HIS TOE IS GONE.  it now ends in a bloody stump.

i dont know what im doing wrong...i know there's a bit of fighting that they do amongst themselves but nobody's ever lost a toe!! i trim their beaks! they have good feed, fresh water, shelter, shade...the only thing i've changed in the last month was to remove a wire screen from the bottom of the cage, because their feet are big enough now not to slip through the half-inch wire underneath.

i have their cage seperated now but neither of them likes to be without the other, but thats all i know of what to do.  my mother will not take them to the vet with me, she thinks its a waste of time.

any any any ideas about what i should do or what's wrong are gladly welcomed.


                                                                    -komori


ok im just editing this today: i noticed also that when he excretes, he doesn't produce that foamy stuff that the males secrete.  i mean, he used to but not anymore.  he's still sick  :(  help please!

                                                                     -komori

[komori35]

he's still not getting better  :(  im worried he might have a disease please help anyone! someone whose bird is also sick! someone whose bird has had this sickness! anyone please...

                                               -komori

[CharlieHorse]

....no help from me, I have not a clue. But let us know what you find out.

[Jess]

What you can do that may help them keep up until you find out what is wrong is get some vitamines for them. I think you can get some from the pet or feed store. Put them on a higher protien diet, and keep them away from the greens. I have had buttons who's feathers fall out pretty bad, but never coturnix.

Ok, now I want you to give me all the stats on these birds, that might help diagnose the problem. How old are they? How many males and females? What colours? What size of cage? What is the cage made of? What are you feeding them? Have they been loosing weight? Are there little scabs where the feathers have come out? Whjere is the main feather loss on the body? Have you noticed any sneezing, watery or sticky eyes, or runny poop. I agree with your mom, the vet, unless he is a qualified avian vet, probably won't know any more than you do. get back to me on this!

Jess

[komori35]

THANK YOU. ok...

they are 11 months old
one male, one female
the male is common markings, the female's a chocolate
the cage is 3 feet long, 1 ft 8 inches wide, and 1ft three inches tall
cage is made of half-inch wire, including the part they step on.
i feed them a mix of seed, protein crumble, and start'n'grow-also a crumble
i think the male has lost a just a little weight. nothing too serious there.
no scabs where the feathers have fallen out
main feather loss...hmm. on the female it's the stomach and wings.  on the male they just sort of come from all over.  the male doesnt have too big of a feather problem though.  what im worried about is his irregular behavior-he wont crow even.  he used to crow so much id yell at him to shut up  
yeah, the male's droppings are runny.  not the female's though.

ok i hope this helps.  thank you for responding.  btw, i used to be an advanced member before the forum changed  (  ha i know a lot of ther people had their status set back as well.) and the only other time this male has gotten himself into trouble was when he flew up to the top of the cage and almost completely scalped himself. he got through that, though.  :)

                                                                    -komori

[Jess]

LOL yes, I've been on and off this forum for a few years now. As a matter of fact, this is where I came when I first got into quail, for information. A couple of times I had my posts up to 400 and better and then they reversed them all again! I'd probably have a thousand all together by now. That was mostly question asking, though, not question answering.

One thing I can say is that even though your birds have lots of space, you should get another female, maybe two. Not until they are better of course, but one male needs a couple females to satisfy his needs. When I keep mine in pairs, the hen always ends up getting used and abused and beat up. I don't think that is your problems at all but it's an idea for the future.

Loosing feathers on the winds and breast is odd. If he was beating her, the feathers would be gone on the head and the back. Can you see if the feathers are actually comming out of the skin or if they are being broken off? If the feathers are being broken off, she may have parasites that are bothering her and she is pulling or breaking ehr own feathers off. Pick her up and look closely at these bald spots. On the remaining feathers, look under the wings and in the neck area. Some lice attach themselves to the base of the feather and lay eggs there. My pet bird had that a year ago. Don't use the sulphur stuff on her if this is the case, mine almost died from it! If it is parsites, go to your pet shop and see what they have for it. Don't bring your birds there, though. If they have it, try to get Invermectin, I beleive it is best administered in a shot form and it kills EVERYTHING - lice,m mites, fleas, the whole shebang. If you had a tonnof birds I would recommend it because it's just not feasible, but they sound like pet birds, am I right? The parasites is just a suggestion. I may be wrong. But breast and wings are places the hen can reach herself to pick off.

My advice right now is to feed them straight starter crumble, and take away the seeds and treats and things. The extra protien will help them. Give them mashed hard bioled eggs if they will eat them, and no greens because they are high in fibre and water content and may irritate that one with runny poop. It won't help, anyway, I mean.

Feel the hen's breast, Is the breast bone sticking out? Does she feel very thin? Same with the male. If the feathers are just falling out, that may be some kind of nutrtional disease but it sounds like they are getting all the vitmines they need with the crumble, that's all I feed mine. Where are you located and what's the climate like? My North American birds, as well as Bob, my pet coturnix, are all going through a heavy molt right now so it may have something to do with that. Are there  any quill feathers on the body at all?

I'm reading through Storey's Guide to Raising Poultry, and one parasite they talk about is a depluming mite. It burrows in to the skin, causes irritation at thr base of the feather, and the birds pull out the feathers to try and releive it. It says that birds can become nearly naken in severe infestations. The treatment is 2 oz of sulphur, 1 oz soap per gallon of water and do dip the birds in this, getting them wet all the way to the skin. I'd be careful, though. The last time I used sulphur on a bird it almost died. It says on the label to rub it into the feathers and such, but it says "Warning: don't get int your eyes, on your skin, in your mouth, etc etc use gloves and a mask etc etc" so if it is that harmful to us, I can just imagine a little birdpreening all that crap off into his system! Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. I don't know how to administer the Invermectin shot, I've never given a needle to a bird and wouldn't begin to know how, but apparently this stuff works. IF it is parasites. It may not be.

Give these birds a real close look over. Check for broken or damaged feathers, scabs, and look very close of irritates sites and for the bugs themselves, Usually very small and hard to see but you can see them. Listen to thier breathing, look at thier eyes, the bottom of thier feet. If they were a whole bunch of just agricultural birds I'd say gt them on the high protein stuff, get them on lice powder and just see what happens, but if there's only two and you really want to treat them well we can put a little more effort in I suppose. Another thing I just thought of, do they have sand baths? Not only do the birds really like them, it helps keep the feathers nice and clean and bug free. Those powder vitamines in the food or water may help a little too, to keep thier strength up, Make sure they are eating properly etc etc etc

I'm curious about this because I've never run across it in my birds, so I suppose if we can findnout what it is I'll be prepared if mine ever get it too!

Let me know what happens,and good luck,
Jess

[komori35]

:(  :(  ok.  a whole bunch of bad stuff happened just now.  stay with me, im going to fill you in jess:

Male:  he just lost another toe-tip.  he has bad sores on his feet.  his poop is really runny. his feathers are coming out-and let me say...there's no real bald patch.  he's just...shedding.  he looks a little thinner.  pretty lethargic.

female: she has lost a signifiant chunk of her toe.  she's has contracted the worst case of bumblefoot i have ever seen-bloody, open sores-and is using her mutilated foot to walk. her breastbone does stick out a bit, her breast is bald and red and irritated...two or three little scabs. her poop is now runny as the male's. oh, and btw, she laid an egg.  :?

most of this stuff happened overnight. i just dont get it.  ill get them on the crumble right away, but about the toes...

it's like they're being bitten off.  i dont trim their nails, but when i see the wound, it's not like a rip...it's a clean-cut bite.  are they biting off their own toes?!?!  is it possible that a rat (and believe me, there are rats around here) or something else bit off their toes and bit the bottoms of their feet at night? they do have some ants in the tray underneath their cage, but not enough for me to get worried.

jess thank you for listening to me about them, and if you have any clue as to why they're losing digits or rather how to prevent it, please tell. i dont think any of their health problems can be treated until  i figure out why they're losing their feet bit by bit.  they're living in my bathtub until i find out what's going on, and if i never do then ill just shower in my sister's bathroom for as long as they live.

i raised them from eggs, im not giving up now!
                                                               

                                                                         -komori

[Jess]

Alrighty then. This sounds more in my league. The worst cases of bumblefoot CAN be treated, I know. I have many birds with few or no toe tips left, it does not impair thier ability to walk. I had a button quail I bought froma  guy once and on one foot she a knob, a half of a toe, anda toe with no nail. She got aslong just fine. Another time I had to slice open the feet of my birds to drain the pus out. They were very co-operative.

If you can I want you to keep these birds separated. You can put them in tupperware containers, not really big ones but enough so they can get around. Have them on a littler of some sort - woodchips or hay or even cat litter, as long as it is unscented and non-clumping. Either they are catching thier feet on the wire somewhere or they are nipping each other's or their own toes. If there are red spots , scabs or rashes on the skin I'd say you just might have parasites of some kind. When quail beat each other up, they don't go for the breast they go for the back or the head or face. It is a possibility that the mites have gotten into thier feet as well, if they do have mites. My birds never did have mites, only lice, so I'm not really experienced in this field. Get them on the high prtien crumble, around 25% should be good. If you don't have that high fed them some mashed hard bioled egg. The extra protien will keep thier strength up and help them heal wounds.

I have another book in front of me called "The illustrated veterinary guide" by chris penny, DVM. He has a couple paragraphs on that feather mite that was described in Storey's guide to poultry. It goes like this:

"Knemidokoptic mange is a skin and feather disease caused by a mite that burrows into the skin and feather follicles. In parrots and other psittacines, these parasites manifest themselves as deformities and overgrowth of the beak, and deformities of the legs, feet, and nails. In fact, severe infestations can actually lead to the sloughing of the toes and nails!...  ...Lesions caused by this mite have been known to take on a characteristic 'honeycomb' appearance. Itching is not a symptom seen with this disease.... Your veterinarian can diagnose this condition by talking skin scrapings of affected skin and examining them under a microscope for the presence of the mange mite. Treatment using appropriate insecticides should be applied to the affected regions every three days for five treatments total, then repeated weekly until all lesions have cleared. The anti-parasitis drug invermectin, givel oraly or injected, has also shown to be even more effective in eliminating these mites. During the treatment process, loosened scabs should be removed and the beak, if affected, should be kept trimmed."


I havn't seen you birds and I'm far from being a vet but I'd say this is a close as your going to get with a book. I don't know if this mange mite can be spread to humans, but it would be my preference to keep them out of the house!  Keep them off of the wire for a while, if you can. If you do keep them indoors, keep them in the garage or in an unused bedroom just incase. A cardboard box with hay oir shavings in it would be fine. Keep them in different boxes. Make sure they can't jump out, you can close the boxes just make sure they can breathe! LOL the darkness will proabbly be good for them, it helps keep them calmer for a while while you're treating them. Go to your pet store and find out if they carry Invermectin. They vet's office may be another try but they will charge more, almost guaranteed. The oral stuff if you don't want to give them needles. I don't know how much this dope costs though. If you can't afford it there are almost certainly other ways. It's too bad I wasn't at the pet store today, I was planning on going too. I'll look on the net and see if there are any home rememdies for this mite as well. Scales mites can be treated with vaseline and karosene but if it's affecting thier breasts too I don't think that will work.


Another thing. For homework...

Phone the feed store and see what they have for mites. Oral medications, injections, powders, creams, etc. Just find out what they have. Same goes for the Vets and the pet stores. Don't buy anything or make any promises, just write down what they have and explain to them your situation. Don't take what the pet store says for heart because a lot of times those guys don't know anything, they just sell animals. The Dr. vet himself (or herself) you may not be able to get a hold of personally but the people at the feed store may know something. I find that the more people you talk to the better.

Sorry for my spelling but I'm going really fast here! Everyhting's probably closed now but until tomorow, just keep them warm and treat them well, and get them on that high protien feed. I'll see what else I can find out tonight but I have to go to work now or I'll be late!!

Good luck,
Jess

[komori35]

ok:

i got them on wood shavings today (the male loves it-he buried himself in it  :) ).  i had to unhook the bottom of the cage and put 2by4s under the tray to get it to floor level (and holy geez, did THAT ever take me forever.  those j-clips just dont want to come off!), but they're on soft pine shavings now.

i also got them their protein and startngrow crumble

also i got a vitamin powder that you put in their water.  its called vitaflight.  i put in 1/4 of a capful to match the instructions, and the water turned yellow (which is the color of the powder). did i put in too much?

tomorrow ill call the local stores to see if they have invermectin for the female.  would it hurt the male to have some too, even though he maybe doesnt have mites?

they're eating the crumble so i guess they're okay right now.  i have them back outside ( dont get me started....turns out i couldnt keep them in my bathtub    ) i dont know if things are looking up for sure yet, because they still have to get through the night.

thanks for all your help jess  8)

                                                                 -komori

[Jess]

being on the shavings will be easier on thier feet until they heal. The birds I have that are on shavings for a lomg time develop these wonderfully baby soft feet, it's pretty neat.

It will not hurt the male to have some invermectin. If anything it will be good because it flushes out any parasite, including fleas , lice, mites, and other pesties. I don't know how long it makes them immune to it, though.

The yellow water is a sign that you have put enough in. I have to tell yo though, that you CAN put it in thier food if it is powder because in water, the vitamines degenerate 15% an hour in in water with chlorine in it, the vitmines are pretty much useless. This is what I heared. Keeping the stuff in powder dry form helps preserve the nutritional impact of it. For example, I have one pair of Bobwhites right now and the hen's eggs are really soft. I increased the calcium A LOT and it still did not have any effect. I had to mix calcium powder in thier food because they wouldn't touch the grit or oyster shell. That still did not help. I moved them into a south facing cage for more vit. D as D is essential to processing calcium. No use. I started to put them on vitamines but to ensure they got enough, I took thier food away at night and fed them in the morning, a small ammount mixed with a tiny scoop or two of vitmin powder. They were so hungry that they ate the whole thing up. If I put that much powder into a large ammount of food it all got sifted to the bottom. I would say, if you want to make sure they really get thier vitmines (because there's only two this won;t take long) mix the right ammount of vitmines with the right ammount of de-chlorinated water (I use bottled water) and force feed it to them once each day while they are really sick. Or, take thier water away for a couple hours in the evening so when you DO give them their medicated water, they drink right away before the vitmines wear out. That's what I do with my parrots and it works great.

Eventually, with my bobwhites, I went downtown and bought some human vit D pills and crucshed them up and put it in thier food. I'm still waiting for results, she hasn't laid in a few days. I think because they are molting they havn't been laying as steady. A fully grown chicken only requires 50 IU of Vit. D per day, and each one of these pills has 400 IU so I have to be careful not to put too much in or they'd OD on the calcium. They have thier own little bad of white powder now that looks suspiciously like cocaine...

I do beleive that vitamins A and E as well as protien play key roles in growing feathers, and the healthier the birds are, the more resistant they will be to illness and they'll have an easier time fighting off the bugs. If it is bugs. DOn't get me wrong, I';m just making an educated guess here, it could be something else but it sounds like bugs to me and nobody else has given thier educated opinion, so, I'd say if that invermectin isn't too expensive, I'd give it a shot. It may take a week or two or even a second treatment for the results to show.

Also, bathing in the chips is good for the skin of the bird. Bathing in sand is even better, if you can get sand. I always keep a big bucket of it in the shed. My pet bobwhite Cory likes going right in the bucket and using it once in a while. Bobwhites make great pets. He's sitting on my knee preening himself as I type right now. Sometimes he likes to help me type too... I think that's where all my spelling mistakes come from 8)

Let me know what happens!
Jess

[komori35]

LOL yours is allowed in the house?? lucky...

sorry i was off for a day or to...stupid, STUPID internet connection grrr...

their feet seem better, and my male is now a lot more energetic.  i haven't called the stores as of yet for a bunch of frustrating reasons...but ill call them monday and get the invermectin-ill buy it myself (my parents owe me a huge backlog of allowance MUAHAHA) if i go to the pet store to pick up invermectin ill also get some sand they can wallow around in.

so 2 nights have gone by with no further incident, and i think they're recovering from the bumblefoot.  my female hasnt laid yet though i suppose that's due to the fact that she's concentrating on walking...LOL she looks so funny, she still has this one sore on her left foot and she doesnt like to walk on it so she kind of hops around and falls on her face in the wood shavings  :lol:

i think i will put the vitamins in the food then.  the wood shavings keep getting in the waterer and  i hate having to clear them out so much (even though i put it on a block of wood to keep it off the shavings...so much for that plan.)

i guess they're on the road to recovery.  ill keep you posted, and thanks again for all your help.

btw, so how many birds do you have exactly? so far ive heard button quail, bobwhites, coturnix, and parrots...lol you're lucky...me with my two little quail and hoping for more, hehe. hopefully ill be able to get some more females.  if i get say two more females, will there be a big problem about the new ones and my current one fighting? just wondering.

                                                             -komori

[Jess]

LOL I don't have too many in the house, not any more. I have to admit it was getting really stinky and then one day my Mom put her foot down and kicked them all outside. Actually she took one and killed him for me as a "get the hint" message which sounds pretty cruel but I was planning to get rid of that one anyway... she would never do that to any of my pet birds

In the house, I have one pair of canaries, one pair of cut throat finches, one pair of Linolated parakeets (which are really a miniature parrot as opposed to a budgie looking thing) and one quail. Plus three baby quail I just hatched out but they're going out as soon as they are old enough. Outside, I have one pair of Bobwhites, Californias and Gambel's plus a pet coturnix and her button boyfriend, and three coturnix hens and thier man. I did have a whole ton of buttons but I didn't like them much, they were too scared. I'm finding the topknots the same way but I've decided not to get rid of them. I want to breed them and hand raise the babies like I did with Cory my bobwhite and sell them to pet stores, I could make a fortune :o But the last batch of eggs the cals laid were all infertile so I don't know what to do about that. We're moving onto a farm really soon so I can make a run or aviary for them and they do better at breeding on the ground than in a small cage. Oh, yes, I forgot to mention my pet quail Bob. Bob is an interesting story, he was one of the opriginal birds I got 3 and a hal;f years ago with my very first quail I ever had. He is a big silver rooster hut he went blind so I kept him as a pet because he was friendly. I took him to the farmer's market for people to pet and stuff. He's been on the local news and in the newspapers! He's old now though, I had to retire him. He lives in the shed but he used to live in the house along with Barbara and her boyfriend and a bunch of other buttons. The buttons were getting to be too much so I moved them outside and they wouldn't lay any eggs so I just sold the all off.

Tye block of wood thing does work! I have done it. When my birds are on shavings I try to find a hanging dish so it doesn't get all full of stuff and it works a little better. It's only temporary so just clean it out once or twice each day. They'll learn to drink when the water is offered to them. Mine have to do that all winter long because their water freezes.

Also, CHECK THAT WIRE CAGE AGAIN for places they could cut themselves because there is nothing more frusterating than nursing a bumblefoot bird back to health and having them do it all over again. It's happened to me so many times. Another peice of advice: never overestimate a quail's intelligent. If you think "Ah, they won't walk on THAT" or "They'll be smart enough to stay away from THAT" think again :roll:

Jess

[komori35]

well then...

called all my local feed/pet stores, no invermectin to be found. is it called ivermectin? one guy asked that. anyway what i did find was some lice spray.  im not sure this will help, because im pretty positive she has mites not lice.  will it be any good? im going to my old trusty feed store anyway to pick up some sand.  ill see if they have anything else besides. ill keep trying to find invermectin/ivermectin.  know any good supply sites i could order it off of? its being very elusive    lol.  my birds are looking a lot better.  they were running around earlier today and the female started laying again  :) yay.  how are your birds doing?  i bet its getting pretty cold where you are   how are they holding up?

                                             -komori

[muttsburg]

you might want to try  Omaha Vaccine

they have

 BIRD MITE GUARD
Place this easy-to-use mite guard in your bird's cage and guard against mite infestation. Attaches to the cage with a twist tie and controls against mites and lice.

http://www.petsuppliesdelivered.com/page.cfm?pageid=11&

http://www.omahavaccine.com/ under Bird Supplies.

depending on the size of your pen it might take a couple of cans for treatment.

[muttsburg]

Sorry, you might also try calling them, they only have a small amount of their stuff on the website, much much more in the catalog. They are 24/7 so you could call now

800-367-4444

They have been great to work with and the prices aren't bad at all.