That Quail Place Forum
Raising Gamebirds => General Discussion => Topic started by: jwinsor on January 30, 2009, 02:12:13 PM
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I am in need of some answers... I guess I'll start with some background information. I wrote a grant to start a pheasant project at the high school at which I work (Central Michigan). We are calling the project "Pheasants in the Classroom" (I know ... really creative!) The purpose of the project is to introduce students into conservation and natural resources but we also use it in a variety of other units of study including embryology, ecology, FFA, ect. The grant got us money to build a 24x24 fly away coop and also a 12x10 shed attached to the coop. Due to pressures from a few people in the community i put up a heat lamp in the shed that runs day and night (you wouldn't believe the crazies that come out of the woodwork when you work in public education... everyone thinks they know whats best for animals... i'm probably going to have to rename the pheasants "feather kittens"... i digress) Anyway, One of the pheasants layed an egg outside the door of the coop last night and it froze. If it was fertilized would I have seen blood in the yolk or would it have frozen before it had a chance to develop blood? Is it possible that the reason for the egg is that I have the heat lamp running day and night? If I have birds starting to lay this early will that affect how late in the season they continue to lay eggs? I would rather they start laying in two months... not now, but if it doesn't matter then I guess that I don't care that they are laying now. Any insight you may have regarding this project would be much appreciated. Thank in advance.
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Others will have more to offer, including comments about your do-gooders. You might put a timer on the light, so it's on at the times they might check on it. They may well cause some of your birds to kill each other. I'll be glad to tell any of them that, in terms they will never forget. Another option might be a thermostat, set at -20F The approximate temperature at which Pheasant begin to be effected by the cold. By all means, use only a red bulb.
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AND...
s016
Our education system needs 100,000 of you, not more money thrown at it.
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Wilder. well said. jwinsor 24 hours of light will induce hens to lay. I have hens ( Quail ) that will not lay untill we have 14 hours of daylight. That is nature at it's best.
Pheasant chicks need to be brooded at 98% week one, then lessen heat by 5% each week. In seven weeks the chicks are able to create their own body heat in calories, due to their metabolic rate of digestion.
Calories, like degrees are a rate of measure. Food creates calories when digested. At the same time the sun creates heat as it comes closer to the earth. If you think of the sun as a large meal eaten by the earth in spring, then metabolizes all summer, you have it.
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I have invited Dan Cowell to post in regards to this topic. He is working with schools in Missouri.
http://www.animalwonders.net/
http://www.gbwf.org/phpBB3/
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Welcome jwinsor. sounds like a great project. best of luck to you. I would think your state dept of fish and game or whatever they are called in Michigan would help educate the so called know it alls with some background information on Pheasant. do they think wild birds come equipped with foot warmers? by making you provide heat 24-7 they are turning natural resources into unnatural resources and making the birds do something they would not do in the wild.
or you could show them the frozen egg and say see look what happend! explain that the extra light is making them lay eggs at the wrong time of year and now you need volunteers to watch for eggs
so this tragedy does not happen again see how many step up ::)
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Already some good advice given, so will add just a little. I would put together an "open house" for the concerned people (if you were in MO, I'd do it for you!!), give a program on basic bird biology and anatomy, should open their eyes and give them a better understanding of the birds' needs. If you need some ideas, shoot me an e-mail. You can also find some good material on the Project WILD website.
As mentioned switch to red heat lamp (to suffice those who still think they know best) and set on a timer. The hens may or may not lay again, I have at it both ways. As happened to me when housing finches & hookbills in with pheasants during the winter; some hens lay a clutch in January and that's it, others may clutch in January and again in May.
Good luck with your project!!
Dan
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Thanks for all of the input. Will my birds have a problem with me reverting the light back quickly or will I need to progressively reduce it? I had 5 more eggs when I came in this morning (two frozen, three in shed)... I'm going to put them in the incubator and see if they start to develop. I didn't see any blood when I candled them though... after the 7th day I should see vessils correct? If the temperature was in the 40's I wouldn't mind collecting eggs now and incubating, but the birds keep laying eggs outside and they are frozen by the time I find them. Last year we just incubated and we got eggs from a dealer in the area... I didn't deal with all this extra stuff, I just put the eggs in the incubator and pulled the chicks out at the end. I'm finding out that I need to learn a lot more regarding the biology of the pheasants. Give me a year and a whole lot of questions and I might be able to get this figured out. The people that were complaining don't seem like the type to show up at an open house but I'm going to see what I can do. One person inparticular was upset with me when I explained to her that pheasants carried their habitat on their bodies in the form of feathers. I think that she may have noticed my hint of snobishness s80. Anyway... as mentioned I am open to any suggestions that any of you may have regarding this project. Our 10 grade biology students do the majority of the work with this, but we are talking about starting an upper level Ecology class that would go even more in depth. Any insight would be used... We will start our ecology unit in another month or two.
Thanks again.
Jeremy Winsor
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I'd shut the light off now, no need to cut back the light.
Having said that....I have a small 25w blue light in my "houses" . I had to do this, as they always went to roost late. This of course meant it was darker inside their houses, so they wouldn't go inside at night. The light is just enough to provide them the needed light to find the roosts.
So it depends on what kind of protective structure you have for them.
I always candle at 7-10 days, then again at about 15 days. The reason for candling again at 15, is at 12-13th day is a point in incubation where the embryo can die. You often will see a red ring when this happens.
I also wouldn't set eggs randomly like you are doing.
I found it best to collect eggs for 7-10 days , then set them.
The reason for doing it this way, is so you do not end up with a traffic jam at the hatcher. It will also give you time to clean and sterilize the hatcher between hatches.
For more on this : http://www.thatquailplace.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0
Also, do not be shy about contacting Dan Cowell for help ! I cannot think of another person who could assist in your project as well as he can !
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Is there a temperature in which I should store the eggs before I put them in the incubator?
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Yes.
See in link in my last post. Lots of info on what you seek.
(sticky topics at top of page)
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I would just like to ask a few question on this subject, and it is addressed to the originator of this topic, jwinsor.
Then I would like to state the situation we have here in WV.
You state that you work at a high school in Central Michigan. Did you have to get a specific type of State DNR permits/license to do this? If so, what were the procedures in obtaining them, and what other political c109 did you have to go through to accomplish this.
This the situation here in WV. Flat out and to the point. They do not give out a tempory wild game farm license to schools. They won't issue a license to a 4-H club or group either. It is a shame, I have had middle schools asking for pheasant eggs to do just as you are doing. The schools check into it and they were told no.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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It sounds like a great project for the school. Hopefully it will encourage some of the students to take an intrest in raising gamebirds. Sadly, fewer and fewer people are taking an interest in raising these birds. As far as your situation. By having the light on in the house all the time you are encouraging your hens to lay. Ring necks are very hardy. I am from Idaho where we always had temps below 0 degrees in the winter. -25 was not uncommon . Since you have a coop built for them if you will train( simply shoo them into the house at sunset for a couple of weeks, then they will go in on their own.) them to roost in the koop they can take very cold temps and do very well without any heat at all! Make sure they have water to drink at least 2 to 3 times a day when the temps drop below freezing and a good supply of food and they will do just fine. Good luck with their project!
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I checked a few of the eggs today to see if they had started to develop. There is no blood in them. I'm assuming that my roosters arn't doing their job. Could the problem be that the roosters arn't on the same cycle as the hens because of how early they started to lay? I would really like to collect the eggs from our birds this year to incubate the eggs but i'm concerned about the fertility (we don't have many funds left to be able to go out and buy more eggs this year). I am considering putting lamps on the birds and moving them into the shed alone. I'm looking for some insight into this. I am collecting 8 eggs a day and I have 10 hens. If you all think that my hens will continue to lay through the spring and summer I won't worry about it, because the roosters and hens should eventually be cooperating. What to you think... you all have a ton more experience with this than I do and I never studied any bird physiology during college that will help me any either. Thanks s85
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Others know a lot more about Pheasant, but until I learn different, my suggestion would be to shut the light off. Use a baseboard heater (or similar) to keep an area in the shed above zero if you have to please Gladys Kravitz.
Save their egg production for when you need it. Artificial lighting can stretch the number of eggs they produce, but it's sure not unlimited. It is possible that the males have not been sufficiently stimulated, but I would bet your problem is related to the cold.
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Could be like Wilder said. It doesn't take long for a newly layed wet egg to cool off in temps 40f and below. Below 40f the fertility will drop right off.
But it's more than likely the males are not "in season", as mentioned.
Steve may be able to help you out with eggs later this season ?
Lots of Ring neckers around.....
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I checked a few of the eggs today to see if they had started to develop. There is no blood in them. I'm assuming that my roosters arn't doing their job. Could the problem be that the roosters arn't on the same cycle as the hens because of how early they started to lay? I would really like to collect the eggs from our birds this year to incubate the eggs but i'm concerned about the fertility (we don't have many funds left to be able to go out and buy more eggs this year). I am considering putting lamps on the birds and moving them into the shed alone. I'm looking for some insight into this. I am collecting 8 eggs a day and I have 10 hens. If you all think that my hens will continue to lay through the spring and summer I won't worry about it, because the roosters and hens should eventually be cooperating. What to you think... you all have a ton more experience with this than I do and I never studied any bird physiology during college that will help me any either. Thanks s85
As to what wilder gamebirds has mentioned:
Others know a lot more about Pheasant, but until I learn different, my suggestion would be to shut the light off. Use a baseboard heater (or similar) to keep an area in the shed above zero if you have to please Gladys Kravitz.
Save their egg production for when you need it. Artificial lighting can stretch the number of eggs they produce, but it's sure not unlimited. It is possible that the males have not been sufficiently stimulated, but I would bet your problem is related to the cold.
along with Reeves:Could be like Wilder said. It doesn't take long for a newly layed wet egg to cool off in temps 40f and below. Below 40f the fertility will drop right off.
But it's more than likely the males are not "in season", as mentioned.
Steve may be able to help you out with eggs later this season ?
Lots of Ring neckers around.....
I talked about this in another topic as well. My experience, again your mileage my vary.. Depending on when the original eggs were hatched will depend on when the time the mature hens will start laying. If they were hatched in January they will start to lay in January or February of the following year. This is fine if you are located in the warmer climates. The reasons being: Ring-necked Pheasants (males) mature in 20 weeks to full color this includes the females as well. The hen cycle is usually after the first year cycle being in the spring.
The males may be ready to breed and the female receptive as well during the first 12 months. The likely hood of the female(s) being fertile is another question. Ambient temperatures and lighting, being natural or manmade plays an important roll.
Here in WV, when I look for purchasing eggs or chicks or even adult birds for the purpose of replenishing my stock, I will specifically look for the dates that they have been hatched. The reasons being outside temperatures here are either below freezing or not remaining above 40 to 50 degrees during Jan, Feb, and March. Any of my new purchases of any of the listed above would have to have a born date, or egg date for the months of Mid May, June, July. Mid July being the latest of purchases for me for production purposes. This way I know when they will start to lay, and adjust my production accordingly.
My birds start laying in Mid March and those are less then 50% fertile. My 90-95% fertility rate kicks in, in mid May. I get from Mid May through the end of July with 90% of my eggs before the molt season kick in and then the egg production comes to an end until the next year. Those birds that lay earlier in the season naturally molt earlier as well, and I haven’t had any of those hen produce eggs either after the molt. So I would venture to guess that the natural cycle of the Ring-necked hens would be no more then 3-months of egg laying in a normal setting.
You can continue to force a hen to lay during this period by removing her egg each day. The maximum number of eggs I have retrieve from one hen in a 3 month period was 75.
In the wild, the Ring-necked hen will only hold a clutch of 10-13 eggs. Depending on the climate and predators factor, if the nest is lost, she may still decide to brood a second time, a third time is rare, but can still happen if the conditions are right.
So in all essence and practicality, the Ring-necked hen(s) laying season of eggs would be no more then 30-39 eggs per season.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Ring-necked Pheasant hen will remain fertile up to 10 days after she has been mated. Also keep in mind that the hen will lay even if the male hasn't mated with her, which may be the event that has taken place at this present time.
I don’t know if this has answered any of your questions since I just kept rambling on once I had started typing, and may have gotten of your topic.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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My roosters and hens are both around 10 months old... I shut off the light about a week back and then put up some red heat lamps. Thank you all for the information. I can at least start making some educated decisions... It's not like the blind leading the blind... as far as me and the kids that I'm teaching about this. More like the visually impared to the point that I couldn't get a drivers license leading the blind :-|
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Here are some pictures of our coop and shed. Needs some work done to it still. That's the problem with class projects... when you run out of time things get postponed. The building trades class is going to put siding on the shed as soon as it warms up enough to cut it without it cracking. Mesh needs some TLC at the top as well.
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A little tip. When making/designing an aviary, you should try and make it in such a way that you have to enter the building by going through the pen.
With your set up, it is possible for escapes when the door on the building is opened.
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I would also like to state the possibilities of heavy snow loads on your top flight netting as well. It doesn't look from the picture that you will be able to lay the netting down if and when heavy snow or ice should build up, which will put a load on the netting and causing it to break, tare or rip, making easy escape for the birds.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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A little tip. When making/designing an aviary, you should try and make it in such a way that you have to enter the building by going through the pen.
With your set up, it is possible for escapes when the door on the building is opened.
Our shed is split in two sections and there is a double door with doors swinging opposite directions to try and prevent that. Not fool proof but hopefully will cut down on escapes. Unfortunately when the building trades class build the shed I wasn't out there to supervise and they put the shed in the wrong direction... it should have been turned 90 degrees so the snow/rain comming off of the shed roof didn't run down on the netting. We're going to try and turn the shed when it warms up a bit. Thanks for the insight.
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Anyway, One of the pheasants layed an egg outside the door of the coop last night and it froze. If it was fertilized would I have seen blood in the yolk or would it have frozen before it had a chance to develop blood?
An egg has to be incubated before it shows any signs of development..That is if i'ts fertile to start with..
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j45 So I have development in some of my pheasant eggs. Looks like around 20% of the first group I put in the incubator has development. I put the dates that they were collected on all of them and and it looks like around Feb 8th they were in pretty good shape as far as starting to be fertilized. I'm pretty excited about it given the problems that have been going on. Temps around here were warm for a few days (mid 40's) and now are back down around the mid 20's. So I'm still picking up a few eggs that have frozen... but I've been sending kids out about every hour that I have a class to pick them up so that they won't have time to freeze. Now I just need to get kids in over the weekend to pick them up every hour :) Should have some hatchers around the first week of march. Thatnks again for all the great info.