That Quail Place Forum
Our Member's Section => Off Topic Discussion and Current Event's => Topic started by: Pheasant Hollow Farm on October 15, 2007, 02:57:02 PM
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I just want to get the opinion of the members here if they would like to help me diagnose the cause of death of a deer that was last seen on Friday, October 12, 2007 at 5pm, in what looked like to be in perfect health, to the best to my knowledge.
This is something different and I really don't know the cause and the WV DNR doesn't want to send down a biologist to take look, even though there has been confirmation of EHD/Blue Tongue within my county and within my district.
I would like to here your thoughts on this. I have taken pictures and have written a review. Although there will be no autopsy to confirm cause of death, is will be in the best judgement of what the members on this forum have seen within their state, while either deer hunting or from know causes that they have seen.
So, if there is any interest/non-interest in this subject please reply either way.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Intersesting...It is really wierd that the DNR doesn't care what up. It would seem that they would be all over it. I know you said that it wasn't this, but here in MN, CWD is a huge issue and the DNR wants to have anyone contact them if they suspect a deer has CWD and they will come down and check it out. Good Luck finding whats up.
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I think you did the right thing. With all the "new" diseases and all the worry about it transferring to people you should be concerned. Any strange death of an animal should be look at seriously. Good Luck
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Not any help from here..............but I've got some pics of deer at a feeder and one of the does looks like bones covered with skin next to the others. :eek: Makes one not to want to hunt any deer anymore. I will post pics ASAP. I am taking pics to Department of Natural Resources to see what they have to say.
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I have also sent pictures off via email to the Parkersburg WV DNR office. I doubt there will be any reply.
So, what do you think, should we continue this discussion, and I will put up my review and pictures or shall we just bury this topic?
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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continue
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So, what do you think, should we continue this discussion, and I will put up my review and pictures or shall we just bury this topic?
Very much, continue !
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Okay, it seems that we have 2 life long members that want to continue. So bear with me since I will have to resize these photos to fit in the alloted space allowed on this forum. I can't remember the post size including the pictures.
I will post the pictures independent for each as a reply, unless someone here has the ability of a webhost and then I will email the pictures to them and they can post the pictures showing better detail.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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I will be back later, time to take care of the birds and run the dogs...
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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« Reply #8 on: Today at 04:49:08 AM »
In the dark ?
:laugh:
edit: opps ! Looks like I have to re-set my time....it's an hour later than it says on my post...
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Here is a good comparison picture. Any ideas on what is wrong with the one on the left? :eek:
(CLICK TO ENLARGE):
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Wow, that looks like CWD.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Okay, here we go.
This is my review of the dead deer.
My family and I have been watching this 1.5 year old since last year when he was only a spike. He would come down to the house and we would toss cut up apples to him and the rest of the resident deer that frequent the property. The last day that this deer was seen, was on Friday evening October 12th at 5pm. That is only 3 day’s ago(Oct. 15th).
It doesn’t look like any foul play. I saw no arrow hole, no .22cal hole, nothing. I contacted the local Parkersburg DNR to see if I could get a biologist down here to check the deer for the EHD or Blue Tongue disease. I was told that there has been conformation of EHD in the wood county and Slate District that they would pass on the checking of the deer. I though that EHD or Blue tongue was 5 to 7 day until death.
First off, I found the deer at a dried creek bottom. The tongue looks normal in size for a deer that looks to be dead for no more then 48 hrs.
Although there were some signs of noticeable blood. There were no signs of mucus or dried saliva, around the area. The eyes and nose were clear as well, except for the trace amount of blood in the nose.
Also noted were the normal signs of body bloating, and the green bile color under the skin in the stomach area. The fur on the hide around the stomach area was starting to fall of as well.
The area surrounding the anus and spinster were highly inflamed and swollen. Also noted were small amounts of blood spotted leaking from that area as well.
I would like you people to look at this deer and tell me what you think.
Pictures in following replies.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Photo #1
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Photo#2
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Photo#3
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Photo#4
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Photo#5
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Photo#6
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Photo#7
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« Reply #8 on: Today at 04:49:08 AM »
In the dark ?
:laugh:
edit: opps ! Looks like I have to re-set my time....it's an hour later than it says on my post...
Don't you guys turn your clocks back? Spring ahead/Fall back?
The sun was just coming over the mountains when I type that post. We haven't changed the time here yet.
Sunrise is: 7:35
Sunset is: 6:45
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Yes, we do the time change. But I think the States went with a two hour change ? Our calendar says we change one hour on Nov. 4th, back .
No idea what your Deer has/had. Still interested in it though.
Being hunting season, is it possible someone used an FMJ round on it, and that is why you can see no hole ?
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Wow, that looks like CWD.
After doing some research.....yes it does look like CWD! I'm going to the DNR in the morning. If that's what it is, it appears that it can spread by saliva, that's a nice how do ya do! This deer has been in my pics for over a month, but this is the first picture that it really showed up well.
Pheasant Hollow, if that deer was not shot or struck by a car, the EHD and Blue Tongue diseases are running rampant this year from what I've read. Ohio has at least 24 counties reporting EHD this year, and I'm in one of them.
This may be of interest?:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26647--,00.html
http://fw.ky.gov/newsrelease.asp?nid=204&NavPath=C105C122C581C644
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2319517&mpage=1
Map of reporting states: http://www.uga.edu/scwds/HDVI2007.pdf
EHD Symptoms:
*Symptoms vary depending on virulence of the virus and resistance of the deer.
*Symptoms of EHD can be very similar to those of CWD, however CWD has not been found in KY. EHD cases
are well documented in KY, mostly in the late summer and fall.
*Acute form:
*Animals may appear feverish and depressed
*Have pronounced swelling of head, neck, tongue, and eyelids
*May have respiratory distress
*Internal hemorrhaging
*Highly virulent strains may cause death in 1-3 days.
*Carcasses often recovered near water.
*Chronic form:
*Survivors may exhibit evidence of lesions in mouth and in rumen lining
*Sloughing hooves (often seen in fall harvest)
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CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease)
After reports of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) surfaced in Wisconsin in 2002, Ohio began targeted monitoring of its deer herd. No sign of CWD has been found here.
Where has it occurred?
In 1967, Chronic Wasting Disease was first detected in deer in northeast Colorado. CWD has not been found in Ohio. As of August 2007, it has been diagnosed in wild or captive deer and/or elk in Colorado, Wyoming, Wisconsin, South Dakota, New Mexico, Utah, Nebraska, Saskatchewan, Oklahoma, Minnesota, Illinois, Kansas, Montana, New York, West Virginia, and Alberta.
Wheewww....looks like I may be in the clear on the CWD!!
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Chuck, just had a look of your Deer on page one. I've never seen a Deer in that condition. You sure CWD is not NOW in your State ?
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Chuck, just had a look of your Deer on page one. I've never seen a Deer in that condition. You sure CWD is not NOW in your State ?
:???: Don't know, I'm taking picture to the Department of Natural Resources in the morning and see what they have to say. Regardless of what they may have to say..........it may have to be removed from the herd. :wink:
Although some of the facts do state....."Symptoms of EHD can be very similar to those of CWD"
:???:
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I have invited a felllow here to (hopefully) add to this topic......
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Chuck, that deer is gross. lol. Something wrong with him for sure.
Steve, I've have seen animals like that before and I think that one of the above posters maybe right, looks like he's been hit by a car. Would explain the interal bleeding (causing the swelling the in the rear) and the fur to be coming off on one side. Also the bruising, bile under the skin. After reading the symptoms for CWD he's missing the swelling around the head.
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Yes, we do the time change. But I think the States went with a two hour change ? Our calendar says we change one hour on Nov. 4th, back .
No idea what your Deer has/had. Still interested in it though.
Being hunting season, is it possible someone used an FMJ round on it, and that is why you can see no hole ?
Reeves,
We use to change the clocks back 1hr on the last Saturday in OCT. Now I am not sure. Some time now in Nov.
There is no evidence of any foul play. Nothing.
I have a pond on the backside of the hill the deer came down on. The deer was in a dried up creek bed.
I went out yesterday and walk my whole creek bed along the front of the property looking for any other deer laying there for some comparison. Nothing was found dead.
I also look around the upper part of the property and the back 300ac. and the side 25ac and along my neighbors creek front, again nothing found dead within any water source.
I am waiting on an email answer as to cause of death.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Chuck, that deer is gross. lol. Something wrong with him for sure.
Steve, I've have seen animals like that before and I think that one of the above posters maybe right, looks like he's been hit by a car. Would explain the interal bleeding (causing the swelling the in the rear) and the fur to be coming off on one side. Also the bruising, bile under the skin. After reading the symptoms for CWD he's missing the swelling around the head.
This deer was not in any auto collision, As I stated to Reeves, the deer had come down the back side of the hill from my back pond. Most deer collisions on my road will normally stay within the creek area on the front of my property, or make it just to the other side. I have a 10 foot creek bottom when there is no water in the creek.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Chuck, just had a look of your Deer on page one. I've never seen a Deer in that condition. You sure CWD is not NOW in your State ?
CharlieHorse:???: Don't know, I'm taking picture to the Department of Natural Resources in the morning and see what they have to say. Regardless of what they may have to say..........it may have to be removed from the herd. :wink:
Although some of the facts do state....."Symptoms of EHD can be very similar to those of CWD"
:???:
The deer may have EHD and may have built up an immunity to the virus. Only time will tell. Has the deer still been seen coming to the feeder?
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Well I go this in an email this morning from a friend of mine after he viewed the photos that I sent him along with the review.
Steve...
After reviewing your pics and factoring your written statements, I feel that the deer died of EHD. Here is my reasoning:
EHD kills an animal from the inside out. It typically kills it from hemorrhaging of organs and specifically the alimentary canal and digestive system. The stomach, small intestine, and colon hemorrhage pretty severely and the mucousal lining of the digestive system is strikingly red. When this happens a deer usually as a response tries to drink water. You mentioned he was found around the creek that was one indication it could be EHD. Another indication is that the deer has red nasal passages and likely were inflamed. This can happen with EHD as well. The definitive symptom was the red swollen anus that could be a number of things but with the bleeding and some visible hemorrhaging is a tell tail sign of EHD.
Case Closed. First one on my farm.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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I visited the Wildlife Office this morning.
They looked at my pictures and said, "No CWD". It doesn't have any of the other characteristics that go along with it, especially at this stage. After reviewing my other pictures of the deer, I should have been able to figure it out after just doing alot reading about it. Duh??
They also said, "No to EHD also". In which I didn't think it was, simply because it should have been dead by now (5-14 days for EHD to kill). My camera has been taking pictures of it for over a month, but none of the pictures where as clear as these ones (or it has just gotten worse), the other deer standing beside it in the same position also made for a good comparison. They said, "it possibly had 3 fawns and is weak, may have had complications during birth, has had EHD for an extended period and has a strong immunity to it and could survive and be good as new in time, cancer, flus, etc., etc. But they did rule out CWD and EHD! Who knows? It's always close by with others, so I'll keep my eyes peeled. I just moved my camera to a different location just before I viewed these pictures, so chances are I won't be able to keep track of it with the camera. :x
Pheasant Hollow,
I described your deer to them and they said, "more than likely EHD, especially in your area".
And, "Yes", the deer comes to the feeder every day with the others. The other 16 pictures show it from different angles, including its head, etc. And seems to behave fine in the pictures, other than its coat is a different color. :eek:
Case still under investigation
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Question is will they give you a management tag for the deer? Or would you have to burn one of yours to cull it from the herd? Here in Texas they will give us one if we provide a photo of the deer in question for deer management purposes. Then again if it has built up an immunity to EHD and finally does recover it might not be a bad idea passing it along to the herd thru offspring. To me I wouldnt gamble on it and see about culling it and not taking chances. Taking chances with the wait and see approach has passed a many of diseases along and allowed them to mutate. If you do get a tag for culling it ask them if you can have it autopsied thru the state and find out what the cuase of it was for sure. I have also seen then trank them and do blood work on them as well. Just a few options you might ask them about.
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Question is will they give you a management tag for the deer? Or would you have to burn one of yours to cull it from the herd? Here in Texas they will give us one if we provide a photo of the deer in question for deer management purposes. Then again if it has built up an immunity to EHD and finally does recover it might not be a bad idea passing it along to the herd thru offspring. To me I wouldnt gamble on it and see about culling it and not taking chances. Taking chances with the wait and see approach has passed a many of diseases along and allowed them to mutate. If you do get a tag for culling it ask them if you can have it autopsied thru the state and find out what the cuase of it was for sure. I have also seen then trank them and do blood work on them as well. Just a few options you might ask them about.
On the case to dispatch a CWD deer, the only time they will give the go ahead, it would have to be on your own property, and out of season. You would have to notify the DNR office and inform then what the deer is doing and what the symptoms are. Then they will either send a CO down with a biologist or tell you how to dispatch it, and bring in the head. You would have to dispose of the carcass in a legal manner, such as burying it, burning it, or bagging it up for the local garbage man.
As far as the issues with EHD deer, the symptoms are not as noticeable, and the end results are the deer are dead within 36hrs, as the case with the deer that I had found on my property. I was told to dispose of the deer in a legal manner. Since it posed no threat to the other animals around, I just covered it in lime.
As far as a replacement tag during hunting season, I don't think so. I guess it could be up to the local CO or the local District DNR office.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Question is will they give you a management tag for the deer? Or would you have to burn one of yours to cull it from the herd?
I had inqired about that and their position was, if they gave me permission to kill a "sick" deer, and "word" got out............then anyone could use the excuse, "I thought it was a sick deer, so I killed it". I didn't push the issue, I know how things work.....:wink: :grin:. If they are not concerned about it enough to check it............then I surely don't have time to fool with it. I've got better things to do.
If it were to have CWD, you could kill all the deer in the state that had it and the disease would still be there for the rest of them, it does not go away for 3-4 years, it survives in the soil. Canada had the same disease with sheep some time back and they tried everything to kill it in the soil, barns, etc, etc. And it came right back and infected the replacement flocks.
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Question is will they give you a management tag for the deer? Or would you have to burn one of yours to cull it from the herd?
I had inqired about that and their position was, if they gave me permission to kill a "sick" deer, and "word" got out............then anyone could use the excuse, "I thought it was a sick deer, so I killed it". I didn't push the issue, I know how things work.....:wink: :grin:. If they are not concerned about it enough to check it............then I surely don't have time to fool with it. I've got better things to do.
If it were to have CWD, you could kill all the deer in the state that had it and the disease would still be there for the rest of them, it does not go away for 3-4 years, it survives in the soil. Canada had the same disease with sheep some time back and they tried everything to kill it in the soil, barns, etc, etc. And it came right back and infected the replacement flocks.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I here ya on that one. That is why they want the head here.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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You also have to bring in the head by the next business day(anything over 24 hrs can't be tested for CWD. Then they get ya for killing out of season.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Oh, and the way I look at it, it is not worth the aggravation to dispose of the balance of the animal. Let Mother Nature take care of it, as long as it doesn't die on my property and I can't smell it.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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CharlieHorse,
How's that deer doing? So far I haven't found any more around the property that have died, although I haven't seen the as many deer on the property as I did in the before the 15 of Oct. either.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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CharlieHorse,
How's that deer doing?
I have no idea. I had moved the camera to another location prior to viewing the pictures with that nasty deer on it.
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CharlieHorse,
How's that deer doing?
I have no idea. I had moved the camera to another location prior to viewing the pictures with that nasty deer on it.
Has anybody noticed any dead deer in the area? Things seem to have slowed down around this area. Still no sign of any frost within the near future. It hit 82 here at 4pm. Clouds rolling in for some rain. How much is anyone guess.
Check out these pictures of my creek that is in the front of the house. I usually have a least 2 feet of water running at all times. I have never had my bridge tubes dry.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Phote # 2
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Photo # 3
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Photo # 4
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Just think how nicely culverts will plug up when it does rain from all the stuff that has built up in the creeks over the summer. :eek: Should be getting some rain in the next 24 hrs.
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Just think how nicely culverts will plug up when it does rain from all the stuff that has built up in the creeks over the summer. :eek: Should be getting some rain in the next 24 hrs.
I don't have to think, I know how bad they get. When Jan. 08 gets here and the floods, I will have 4 foot or better over that bridge. Then I have to deal with the back water, and all the crap that will get stuck in the tubes and laying across the bridge.
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Well, hopefully with the last two days of frost, and tonight going to be low 30's* the EHD will have ended in WV. I haven't found any dead deer since that 6 point.
How's that deer by you CharlieHorse, any updates on the condition?
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm
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Nope.......haven't seen hide nor bone of it! :grin:
I figured that I would still get a picture of it at some point even though I moved the camera......but nothing yet.
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Besides the already mentioned I'll throw in another, TB, which we have here.
I am surprised the DNR wouldnt check it out, here they are very proactive, all deer taken in season ahve to be tagged and checked at a deer check station for TB, if any doubt the brain is sent in to the lab.
Let us know what you find out please.
Jake
Curran, MI
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Besides the already mentioned I'll throw in another, TB, which we have here.
I am surprised the DNR wouldnt check it out, here they are very proactive, all deer taken in season ahve to be tagged and checked at a deer check station for TB, if any doubt the brain is sent in to the lab.
Let us know what you find out please.
Jake
Curran, MI
Jake,
What are the signs of deer with TB? Do you have any links to pictures of deer with TB?
Steve
Pheasant Hollow Farm